16 year old in hospital, adult mixed ward.

[Teenangels]

My daughter and I are currently sitting on a chair in the waiting area, to be taken up to a ward, she is 16 only just and been diagnosed with an appendicitis, she has been given morphine, so is sleepy and

I have been told that she will be going up to an adult mixed ward to wait for surgery and that I am not allowed to go up with her.

I am actually furious that my 16 year old will be surrounded by adult men, she is a child how is this allowed to happen.

In my eyes she is still a child, she can't get married (without my permission) but can be treated as a child.

AIBU and over reacting or AINBU to feel she is being totally let down.

Plus of course all the women on the ward is ill, they are all 'vulnerable '

The safeguarding palaver that no doubt goes on in her school - and then this - she can be half conscious with any adult male wandering about

Quite! DD1 is in Y13 and is 17, many of her friends are 18 and they still have to have permission from a parent to leave school earlier in the day!

@Qazwsxefv

Patients can consent to their own treatment much younger than 16, they can consent if medical staff deem them Gillick competent (look it up).

Also, if a patient, who is Gillick competent, refuses medical treatment/tests etc, there is nothing medical staff can do, regardless of parental wishes.

It doesn't matter what happens at school or in any other societal sphere, it's only relevant what the rules are in the NHS, for the purposes of this thread ?

For all the posters who are advising the OP 'insist' and 'kick up a fuss' etc have zero idea what this will actually accomplish!

It usually accomplishes an awful lot. Pals especially seem to bend over backwards to help, on the two occasions I’ve needed them to at least.

Not swearing, shouting or being abusive.

But clearly stating you are unhappy, why (your daughter is vulnerable) and not stopping or hesitating to advocate for your daughter should at the very least mean they let you stay.

At what point would it be OK to put your child on an adult ward? I only ask as I wouldn't be happy if a 16 year old was in the next bed to my 6 year old daughter. I remember I was in hospital when I was 7 and was in a ward with 2 teen boys around 15, I didn't have someone in there constantly either, the station was around in the other bit so I was in a room with 2 fully developed males unsupervised (parents didn't stay with me and just came at visiting time). I was in for appendicitis too. What I'm getting at is the cutoff has to be somewhere, 16 sounds about right as this is when a child is fully developed. Maybe you could request she's placed in an all female bay, I'm not sure a childrens ward is appropriate though.

Yeah, I know, we're supposed to be grateful for any old shit if it comes from the NHS. Even if it's potentially harmful, we need to put up and shut up.

I wonder if you have seen the inside of a hospital recently. My db recently spent the night on a trolley in a corridor. (he was immobile, no chance of getting up - had to piss in those cardboard things in the corridor on his trolley). The call bells ding permanently because there aren't enough staff to answer them. Plenty of patients are mobile enough to get up and sexually assault someone. The staff are more thinly stretched than they have ever been. We don't have enough staff, we don't have enough hospitals. This needs to be admitted and fixed.

It's a first world problem because in most of the second and third world they a) know what a woman is and b) keep them separate from men as standard, for bloody obvious reasons.
And it's beyond patronising to people in those countries to allege that they don't have hospitals or skilled staff. They do.
Speaking from experience.

Gillick competence means BUGGER ALL in this example, oobeedoobee.

You seem to have a strange agenda as well as predilection for weird use of bold.

I know a lot of people are saying there will be single sex bays. There may not be. I was in a mixed bay for 4 days. I personally wasn’t intimidated because the men in the ward were very old and frail (couldn’t get out of bed never mind anything else). But I would not want this for my 16 year old child.

although there were curtains I could pull across, I was discouraged from doing so (nurses wanted to keep an eye on me), and you could hear all conversations with patients (“are you sure you’re not pregnant Mrs Delaney? How can you be sure? Oh, you’ve not had intercourse for months?”

Ask to speak to the matron for the hospital (there will be someone on call if out of hours) I would not leave and tell them you are staying. She is 16 and and still a child. Contact pals and ask to speak to senior staff to make a complaint. You should not be having to deal with this whilst so worried about your daughter.

I know you're concerned as she's only 16, but this could happen to many people. Chances are if it's a pre-op ward many will be feeling pretty rough and not moving about. Also, if she's drugged up, I'm sure they'll be doing regular checks on her (and others in a similar way) on the ward, so nurses will be constantly coming and going. One or two from the surgical team usually come down to see each patient beforehand as well, as again others will be around.

My DD was in a bad way when she bad her appendectomy and it took three times longer than normal, the team were fantastic, stayed on with her and while she was in recovery and left work three hours late. I'm not saying this will happen to your DD, OP, but introspect I'm so glad she was in the right place and got her treatment. Not saying this will happen to your DD, my DD was just unlucky.

Hope it goes ok, OP.

I’m sorry, but being picky about who’s in the same ward and the minuscule risk that one of them theoretically might be a rapist is a first world problem.

Children are literally dying world over because there is no hospital and/or doctor to treat them.

@oobeedoobee You are incorrect about medical refusal. (and many other things)

Gillick competence is about agreeing/consent to procedures.

It is perfectly possible for a Gillick competence child to be overruled by doctor/parents when it is felt that the medical procedure is in the child (because adult =18) best interests.

I would absolutely insist on being with her btw

Methinks oobeedoobee needs to put Mumsnet down and go back to work and get that child a bed in the right part of her hospital.

'Paeds A&E won't even see anyone who is 16yrs old or over ffs !'

This is just not true they see kids up to 18.

If I had a 16yr old who needed hospital treatment I would expect it to be on a kids ward. If it had to be on an adult ward (and yes they are all mixed with single sex bays) I would expect to stay with them.

My daughter is scared as she is having surgery, she is scared that she is in so much pain and they are not listening to her.

She does not want me to leave her, she has asked me what will happen if she dies.

My daughter has never had an operation before.

@Teenangels - I still don't quite understand the setup of your DD's ward. You say:

The ward is mixed the bays are single, the bathrooms and toilets are mixed.

but then you say

The nurses station is by the entrance doors and patients bays are further along and there are about 8 bays with 4 beds in each bay.

So are you saying that each BAY has mixed sexes in the 4 beds within it, and they have to leave the whole Bay if they need to use the toilets and the washrooms? That would be unusual. Normally, from my experience, Each BAY of however many beds would have their own toilet/washroom facilities for patient use only. Visitors would have to use ones out in the corridors though

Any patient has the right to have a carer or advocate with them in hospital, you are both. Speak to PALS & or the matron. Does your dd have any disabilities no matter how small which would strengthen your cause?

Drat hadn't finished : www.cqc.org.uk/guidance-providers/gps/gp-mythbuster-8-gillick-competency-fraser-guidelines

16-17 year olds
Young people aged 16 or 17 are presumed in law, like adults, to have the capacity to consent to medical treatment. However, unlike adults, their refusal of treatment can in some circumstances be overridden by a parent, someone with parental responsibility or a court. This is because we have an overriding duty to act in the best interests of a child. This would include circumstances where refusal would likely lead to death, severe permanent injury or irreversible mental or physical harm.

OP - The hospital should have in place guidelines for 16-17 year olds being cared for on adult wards. Ask to see it.

Also contact PALS

It is not as simple and straightforward as 16=adult in hospital - your particular child's needs must be assessed and care given appropriately.

Bollocks. They're dying because they can't afford to use the hospitals and doctors available in their countries. Which is a different situation entirely. Please do some research before derailing the thread with any more of your "be grateful for shit on a plate some people don't have plates to put their shit on" rubbish.

It wasn't too long about that a poster on here put her foot down and was able to stay overnight with her 17 year old son in hospital, so not backing down after the first "Sorry, No " from the hospital can and does accomplish a great deal.

It is difficult for hospitals with older teens because they are too old for paediatrics but technically still children and too young for an adult ward. I can't see this changing until all hospitals have teenage wards (with the state the NHS is in, Christ knows when that will be). But in these types of situations, a parent or guardian should be allowed to stay.

What, you don't care about the welfare of patients?

I support the nurses strike.

I also support measures to keep patients safe.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, surely? They bloody well oughtn't to be.

@oobeedoobee legally, she's a child. That creates a safeguarding concern which, no matter how much the NHS is on its knees and no matter if the NHS considers a 16 yr old child an "adult", the NHS can't actually ignore the fact that she is, legally, a child.

Also, FWIW, my DS is under paediatric care - until he is 18 (lifelong medical condition). Therefore it is not the case that the "NHS" considers all 16-year-olds "adults".

OP, your daughter has legal rights, as a minor. Use the word "safeguarding". Use the phase "duty of care". Stay calm and polite (as I am sure you will, the phrase "that doesn't work for us" is also useful), but repeat those words over and over. While she may indeed have to go onto a mixed ward due to overcrowding, they cannot ask you to leave. They, and you, have a duty to ensure her safety - as she is a minor.

You don't have to leave her. So, don't.