16 year old in hospital, adult mixed ward.

[Teenangels]

My daughter and I are currently sitting on a chair in the waiting area, to be taken up to a ward, she is 16 only just and been diagnosed with an appendicitis, she has been given morphine, so is sleepy and

I have been told that she will be going up to an adult mixed ward to wait for surgery and that I am not allowed to go up with her.

I am actually furious that my 16 year old will be surrounded by adult men, she is a child how is this allowed to happen.

In my eyes she is still a child, she can't get married (without my permission) but can be treated as a child.

AIBU and over reacting or AINBU to feel she is being totally let down.

Yes this ^

I was on a similar mixed sex ward - separate bays and mixed toilets, years ago with a teenaged girl who had her mother with her.

It was perfectly fine and I can't see what the problem would be. We were a lot happier for her to be there as we could relax and not feel obliged to keep an eye on her daughter and surely it makes less work for the busy nursing staff.

I thought the mixed sex toilets were supposed to have been abolished years ago. They were the worst bit.

Horrific lack of safeguarding.
Female only ward is required. Refuse to leave her unless they provide safeguards.

This isn't quite right. Hillock competence has only been legally tested on providing consent for medical procedures or investigation, not for refusing it.

The law as it stands allows a parent to consent to medical investigation or treatment on behalf of a child under 18, even if they refuse.

Unless it was an immediate life or death emergency, a disagreement would normally have to be ruled on by the courts, and even then its still a very very dodgy area to force a competent child to undergo treatment they refused to have.

@Nocutenamesleft
So what happens if (hypothetically) 16 years old decides to refuse the operation? Because she’s alone and scared, but she firmly says “no”? I’m asking because I’m genuinely curious.

I'm sorry OP thus must be horrendous for you both. Clearly no fault of the staff, NHS underfunding isn't their fault BUT I would not leave my 16 year old in these circumstances. You are definitely not bring unreasonable. I'm so sorry.

And it's not 'people of both genders'.

It's sexes. Biological men and biological girls being placed together as strangers in intimate settings without adequate adult supervision while they are ill and vulnerable.

I find it pathetic that anyone defends this.

I was only quoting the NHS website

Let her go so that she has a bed and they can treat her ASAP. Hopefully she will be operated on very soon. On most wards there are bays so I would expect her to be placed by staff in a bay with other females.

Then speak to PALS to find out if it was the only option at this point in time or if they could have offered a more appropriate location and if you can join her. As others have said if its the only option at the moment, her health has to be the most important matter.

@Qazwsxefv

If the hospital think that the OP is putting pressure on her DD to refuse necessary treatment/act up until she is allowed to stay, the hospital will begin to develop safeguarding concerns about the OP. Furthermore, they will question whether she really wants her mum there that much if they think OP is putting her up to it.

It would be better for OP's daughter to just explain that she doesn't feel safe, she is very distressed and she wants her mum there as her advocate/chaperone. Rather than act under her mother's direction.

All this, ‘we should be grateful’ BS makes my blood boil. Haven’t rtft so there may be some more measured responses, mine excluded ;)

We pax taxes for a service which is not fit for purposes so it’s not a bloody freebie. Yes I blame to govt too etc etc heard it all before.

Your DD deserves better and yes I’d raise merry hell and more. This is a safeguarding issue.

I agree I wouldn't leave my child in these circumstances. Everyone needs to stand up to this.

This has never been solely about funding though. A lot of it has been predicated on ideological claptrap about 'genders' which allows twats - many of whom are NHS managers - to shame women about 'pearl clutching' and the like.

I have no idea. I imagine they’d not do the operation. There apparently is blanket operations that has consent which isn’t required. For example if someone comes in dying, bleeding and unconscious they can put them under anaesthesia and operate on them.

there is a movie about a child who was 16 who was a Jehovah witness who refused a blood transfusion because of his and his parents beliefs. The hospital took them to court and he lost and they did it against his will. But of course that’s a completely different case. (This might not be 100% accurate)

However, prosecution rarely occurs. Instead, the courts are asked to exercise their power under the doctrine of parens patriae which allows state interference to protect a child’s welfare (From this website:adc.bmj.com/content/90/7/715#ref-12)

it’s an interesting discussion for sure

This would be reprehensible behaviour in my opinion.

It means a paediatrics bed that may have been available no longer would be.

I have first hand experience of what that means - when my 3 year old needed admitting for IV antibiotics for sepsis and there was no bed available. My wife was breastfeeding our 4 week old, so I ended up waiting in A&E on a trolley for 9 hours, before eventually being taken by ambulance to the closest Peads bed, which was a 65 mile / 2 hour drive away. Then having to do that return trip 7 times in three days.

Gillick? 🙂

I feel “hillock competence” has joke potential but I can’t quite formulate one.

And for the record Gillick competence may be reached at 12 but my NT eldest DD in her very early 20s in situations such as these
would every time expect me as her mother to advocate for her.

This is a safeguarding issue regarding a very ill child - don’t put that on to her. Redirect your discomfort / lack of care for your child to your failing NHS trust.

YANBU at all, I can understand her not being in a paediatric ward at 16 but you should be allowed to stay with her, what is their reason for not letting you stay?

@Nocutenamesleft

yes 16-18 year olds can consent

they are not doing so under Gillick competence but under the mental capacity act,

I’ve posted the guidance several pages back.

however the young person 16-18 is in a particular legal situation as they or their parents can consent

to correctly consent anyone must understand what is being explained and the guidance says that parents and guardians should be involved in this process with the child. Admitting the child without the mum means that all that process takes place without them. It’s awful practice to deliberately exclude the parent from this process when the child and the parent want to be part of it.

Hope your DD gets in for surgery ASAP OP. I really feel for anybody that needs urgent treatment at the moment.

FWIW I went into hospital for surgery as a 14 year old in a paediatric ward and felt awkward for being too old for the child friendly decor, playroom etc. I didn’t have parents stay overnight and managed despite being very shy and in a lot of pain (and awake most of the night).

if she’s on morphine she might be quite drowsy and will hopefully sleep once she’s settled.

BIL went into hospital with appendicitis In his early 20’s and was very embarrassed at MIL (ex-nurse) constantly questioning the nurses. We went in to visit once as he was in for a few days due to another issue and could tell the staff were getting exasperated with her. Our concern was that they avoid coming to his bed so that they didn’t have to deal with another mouthful from MIL. She even tried to stay while he had a bed bath and the nurse apparently told her to give him some privacy which BIL was very glad of! I’m not saying you’re doing the same but I can see why they don’t want to bend the rules when there are people like MIL about!

A child is anyone who has not yet reached their 18th birthday (Children Act 1989 and 2004). The fact that a child has reached 16 years of age, is living independently or is in further education, is a member of the armed forces, is in hospital, prison or a young offender’s institution does not change his or her status or entitlement to services or protection under the Children Act 1989. Young people who are in this category as well as younger adolescents often fall through the net of services, not seen as an adult but no longer a child; they are often very vulnerable

straight from my local hospitals safeguarding policy

My DD is nearly 16. I could imagine her being on a mixed ward but I could not imagine having to leave her there on her own for her first time in hospital. I would happily sit in a hard chair all night.
Where has all the compassion gone and common sense. Draw the curtain and let mum sit by the bed.

Apologies if I have missed it OP but what reason did they give for not allowing you to stay?

Our hospital has all mixed wards, apart from maternity but separate male and female bays, so it wouldn't be physically possible to move your DD to a fully female ward no matter how upset you are about it.

It would be either accept a mixed ward/single sex bay or no treatment.

Therefore you should be allowed to stay in those circumstances.

What did PALS say when you presumably escalated the matter?

depends what you mean by 'placed together'

what degree of separation do you want? Nowhere (apart from maybe A&E) puts men and women in the same room, that I've seen in 20 years in the NHS, always in separate bays.

Is a wall and two sets of double doors not enough separation? if not, how many does it need to be? 2 walls? 5m? 10m? Different floors? Why not a separate building???

Bays are single sex, Wards are mixed - There may be for example 20 orthopaedic patients admitted at any one time. Our ward has 4 bays of 4 beds and 4 side rooms. If you want separate male and female wards you'd need to double the number of orthopaedic specialist nurses, physios etc and maintain a bigger estate to satisfy the same number of patients.

Then you'll say - Easy - just have 2x 10 bed wards - but what happens if you have 12 male and 8 female patients? borrow some space on the other ward? But then it's a mixed ward and you're back where you started

@fix no it will mean the mum gets to stay with her on an adult ward as per most hospitals policy for children on adult wards

and it wouldn’t be taking a peads bed from a child. This is a child that needs a hospital bed. She is just as deserving of good care as any other child

You have every right to stay with your 16yo daughter. CQC and general policy states that those in full time education between the age of 16-18 can choose to be treated either on paediatric or adult ward. As a vulnerable person it is a safeguarding issue. Ask to speak to the site manager or director on call. Hope your lass gets sorted.