How would you cope knowing this about your grandmother?

[elephantonacid]

Grandmother lives in a different city and I haven't seen her for a couple of years. Always had a lot of love for her and she's always been wonderful to me. As I've gotten older though and as the adults in my family have started talking to me more about things a child would be sheltered from, I've come to learn that the reason my father and aunt are so messed up psychologically is because my grandmother abused them horrifically.

They were terrified of her. She would beat them with wood and belt buckles. If they spoke out of tone they would be put in a cold bath. Locked in cupboards, kicked, starved etc. Obviously as a child I did not know this, but I always knew my dad struggled with his mental health and was quite closed off emotionally (not all the time, he's NEVER been abusive, he's a wonderful father).

I really struggle now having learnt that she abused someone I love so much to the extent that he still struggles a lot as an adult, and my aunt who I also adore is very psychologically damaged.

Suddenly feel a but numb to who was once my lovely grandma who could do no wrong.

From what I've been told, when people have tried to talk to him about it he just says 'she was young and lost' then shuts down the conversation. He doesn't like talking about it.

This is the only part of your post that matters.

If your dad hasn't told you himself then it's not your business to do anything at all. If he had wanted you to know he would have told you already.

If you distance yourself from his mum then do so without making a song and dance about it. Otherwise he will ask why, then you'll have to lie or tell him, then he would be upset and feel like he is the cause etc etc etc...

Children do not need to know everything about their parents.

By your logic all the racist things people did in past was all ok because it was accepted in the society?

Every violent person has a history of problem themselves. Gm here belted her kids, if they spoke in wrong tone put them in cold baths, not given food, locked in cupboard. How much anger a person must have to inflict this on little children. I am sure kids must be crying, screaming, and she continued. I dont think I would see Gm in the same light as before. I may not confront her but i would have a less affectionate relationship with a person like that.
There is no need for us to use our imagination to create a picture in order to justify abuse, especially towards helpless children. There were plenty of parents back then who didnt belt or starved their kids.

The abuse must be out of the norm even for those times that both children had serious mental health issues as adults.

@elephantonacid i would not confront, rather have a non emotional relationship with her.

My granddad was physically and emotionally abusive to his kids. Now I'm an adult I can see the damage it has done to my mother and the whole family really. He was himself also horribly abused and perpetuated that cycle along with alcoholism. My mother seems to have forgiven him and has a lot of sympathy for the hard life he had. I take my lead from her. However that is just what works in my case, every situation is different. Give yourself some time to process it all.

Actually let me be really clear. Abuse = trauma. Shame goes hand in hand with trauma. That is another trauma. Did I somehow encourage it? Am I a bad person? Yes, I must be and I am unlovable. IF the very first people who you tell about the abuse do not believe you = trauma. It then become less likely that when you have recovered that you will reach out again. Much better to keep quiet and men are incredibly bad for doing this because of the way society treats men and their emotional state. Do we keep putting our hands in the fire when we know we will get burned. A crying shame but understandable because the majority of people are kind, compassionate and caring.

When I told my mum what my dad was saying to me she did not believe me. I was 5.

It's a hard one. On the one hand you don't want to open old wounds for your dad, on the other hand you may feel this woman must be confronted. I'd try gently talking to your dad op, perhaps he needs the conversation with a safe, loved, trusted daughter and doesn't know it. I'd definitely not see her anymore, and I'm not advising you to, but I'd confront her, but that's just how I am...

It's not hard. If her dad wanted her to know then she already would. It's not anyones place to open things that someone wants left alone.

Your Dad has allowed you to build a relationship with your Grandmother - he wanted this relationship for you. If you know it would upset him to pry into his childhood then don't do it.

If you have not see her for a couple of years then its not like you are dropping in every week etc. I would just leave it and perhaps ask to speak to your father about his childhood.

Take a step back from granny if you need to and reduce contact.

I often wonder this. I’ve cut off most of my abusive family but can’t quite bring myself to cut off my dad because I know he was abused himself, I feel sorry for him but equally know he made a choice to allow me to be exploited by his family and to be physically abusive to me. My Dad is a great grandad mainly because I supervise every interaction and DD is never alone with him or with him for more than a couple of hours. He has had counselling but it doesn’t undo the things he did. She adores him and doesn’t understand why she’s not allowed there for sleepovers. It’s because I don’t trust him.

I’ve said in child friendly terms that he wasn’t always kind to me when I was little so I just want to keep to nice visits where I can make sure he’s definitely learned to be better. But really I don’t know if he has, I can’t ever know or trust that.

Do you think it would have been better to never know your grandmother- never have that bond? Or to have enjoyed it when you were little even if you know things are more complicated as an adult?

My mother and I were both sexually abused by my grandfather, my mother's dad. I found out in my twenties that my grandmother knew what was going on. She was a very sweet grandmother, my grandfather was a 'pillar of the community' type, very well respected.
My dad is a violent alcoholic, has spent time in prison.
In the end relatives are just people, human beings with flaws sometimes carrying their own trauma or shame.
People change over time, things done in teens/twenties/thirties etc might not be reconcilable with the person you know now. Some things are unforgivable, some things are not yours to forgive, some things change your view of a person's character in a way that makes a relationship with them impossible.
In the end, as long as the person doesn't pose a risk to anyone, you have to accept that there probably will never be a reason you can understand to explain their actions and knowing that this is part of their life story you make a decision about how involved you want them to be in your life.

It's a headfuck for sure, and I wish you the best OP

I can relate. The abuse wasn't as bad as yours but my parent went through similar. Yet my dgp was always so warm and loving towards us gc. It's hard... I want to resent dgp for messing my parent up, I'm nc with my parent now because those issues made it very difficult... But somehow I can't hate either of them. I wish with all my heart that dgp had raised my parent right, so then I'd have had a better, more stable upbringing too... I can't resent my loving dgp though, i believe it all happened but I have never seen that side so it's hard... I can only rationalise it in that my dgp had so many children and struggled to take care of them all so being super strict worked to keep the peace... Which breaks my heart. Sorry about your situation op, it's absolutely disgusting but massive respect to your df... It's so hard to break the generational curse, I suppose I'd focus on how amazing your df is to not repeat history. Unfortunately, mine is and can't even see it.

I'd want to find out more, as this

Always had a lot of love for her and she's always been wonderful to me

is incongruous and at odds with the woman physically abusing her children to the extent you describe. Anyone who has the capacity to do that would have to have a personality bypass to be "wonderful" to other people. They can run but they can't hide, they'd be found out and the mask would slip.

it may be incredibly difficult to broach the subject with your grandmother direct, but somehow you need to find out the truth from her as to why she behaved in such a cruel way and can still live with herself.

I'm not sure this is a good idea.

The dad and granny could still be in an abuse dynamic where he fears her or is in some weird way still trying to please her.

Had the granny ever apologised or made amends?

Personally I'd go NC or very very low contact. I just couldn't look at them in the same way. This was extensive physical and mental abuse, and neglect, over a long period of time.

If it's inter generational, then I can identify with that. My parents maintained that compared to what they got as punishment as kids, they were soft as fuck with us... still got beatings though when our own peers were getting pocket money suspended or getting grounded.

I struggle with a relationship with my DM (DF died some years ago) I struggle that she thinks she was a brilliant mum whereas my opinion was that mostly she was adequate but frequently poor in that role.

But it's not my son's fight. He has a minimal enough relationship with her. I'm sure if I ever told him the details he would be shocked and appalled at what granny did to us all but tbh it didn't happen to him, I'm doing everything I can to ensure that the poor parenting doesn't carry though to this generation.

Sadly this isn't uncommon in previous generations. I think more people are willing to speak about it these days.

I recall reading my grandmother's diary after she passed. She was locked in the kitchen cupboards.

On my father's side they lived as indentured servants in coal camps and abuse was rampant. Children left school around year 5 to work in the mines or girls worked in the stores or camp kitchens.
No labour laws at the time. Many employees were beaten and abused.

Very different times.
I'd say, if they are no longer like this, try to have some forgiveness.

Your sense of time is way off. If Ops dad is early 60s, then he was born in the 60s, and a child still in the 70s. Divorce was legal (albeit with stigma), contraception was definitely available, and it wasn't normal to beat your children.

@nokidshere , people are different, cultures are different and there's no one binary generic answer anyone here including me and you can give here with absolute certainty... I know in the UK there's the stiff upper lip mentality and keep calm and carry on. I do understand it, but am not like that, and one should accept many others aren't either. Where I'm from people would prefer bringing out in the open by default and that's also not always the best way. Some people may prefer not to open up old wounds, others may feel talking helps.

Others may not know and default to sweeping it under the carpet, and later find out talking actually helped. Only op can gauge her dad's reactions. Humans are complex...

I think there is a difference between spanking/corporal punishment…which whatever our feelings was once deemed totally acceptable and good ‘discipline’ and abuse.

What you are describing is the latter, and I couldn’t forgive or have that person in my life. Your dad gets to make his choices about forgiveness etc, and you get to choose who is in your life. No song and dance, no dragging things up with dad/aunt, but I wouldn’t have any involvement with her.

Psychological cruelty and violence is not discipline, whatever era you grew up in.

It is troubling isn't it. It is partly an "of the times" situation, my dp was hit with a belt and his mother was very absent emotionally, he struggles to this day, but her behaviour wasn't abnormal he's knows from his peers

She presumably has changed if you haven't seen the abusive behaviour.

In my experience, some people are very good at keeping their abusive behaviour for certain people while being unfailingly charming to others.

OP: you don't see this woman often so it should be easy to continue not having much contact with her if you don't want to. Your dad sounds amazing. I would personally follow his lead and not discuss her with him unless he raises the issue first.

I'm around your Dad's age, OP, and this wasn't normal then. Yes, smacking was common, but not this sort of abuse.

I loved my maternal grandfather (born in the 1890s) and only found when I was an adult that he had beaten my mother when she was a child. Nothing nearly as bad as what your poor father experienced, but it still surprised me hugely, because he always seemed such a gentle and kind man. She didn't tell me until some time after he had died.

I did wonder whether his experience in the trenches during the First World War might have brutalised him, but I have no idea. Perhaps your grandmother's behaviour was partly a response to the abuse she suffered herself. Of course that is not an excuse or a justification. Her behaviour was appalling; I would have said unforgivable if it wasn't for the fact that your father had forgiven it.

I think as it was many years ago and she has not shown any signs of abusive behaviour recently, I would try not to let it affect your relationship, especially as you don't see her often and your father clearly wanted you to have a relationship with her.

That won't be easy though. It's the sort of thing that once you know it will be impossible to forget.

Agree with people above who have said to understand her context - not to forgive her but to understand that she was being abused in a very bad state mentally and unable to parent, but no choice as no contraception and no way out.

Some people just aren't able to be parents - they don't have the emotional resources or the blueprint, i can see this in several women I know from that generation and it's easy to hate them but harder to try and imagine them as children and the kind of world they grew up in, in the aftermath of WW2. Sometimes they are badly parented themselves and unless some other parent figure steps in and shows them love they have nothing to pass on - it's not there. And they can't deal with anyone needing it from them.

If he has forgiven her that is incredible and would be just as healing for him as it is for her. I would try very hard to see if you can do the same.

I wouldn’t leave my child with her.

So she not only abused them both she involved the one in the abuse of the other.

I couldn't see her again tbh.

I'd also be quite upset that he had let her in my life.

How old is she?

Agree with people above who have said to understand her context - not to forgive her but to understand that she was being abused in a very bad state mentally and unable to parent, but no choice as no contraception and no way out.

The OP didn’t say any of this though, just that her partner was abusive.

Sorry, just seen that your dad is early 60s.

Similar age to me!

I don't think that this level of abuse was commonplace.

The odd smack yes.

I'd have to tell her what you have found out and ask her what she has to say about it? I'd then tell her unfortunately you can't continue contact and walk away. I'd also be furious your dad let her have a relationship with you, were you ever left alone with her as a child? She should have been locked up for child abuse. She might be your gran and a cute old lady but she must be rotten to the core to do that to anyone, let alone her own children. Your poor dad and aunty.