to ask views on the 5-year-old cycling and Sajid Javid video?

[allswellthatends]

Maybe this has been debated to death already because the story came out Nov 11 but it's not showing up on search here. A dad's helmet camera catches a driver passing his 5yo by what he felt was too close, and Sajid Javid and Jeremy Vine got into a disagreement about what the driver should have done.

I live in London and I think (hope) I'm very good with cyclists if only because I'm not usually in a rush. Also I cycle, and my children cycle more. And I'm used to the countryside rule of not coming too close to horse riders . In this particular case, a small child, I would have stopped completely or slowed to a crawl.

Still, London roads are very narrow, traffic is generally quite slow-moving anyway, and so observing a 1.5m distance isn't always practical. It seemed to me that it also makes a difference if the driver is coming towards the cyclist (who can therefore see the car) or from behind (which as a cyclist I find much more unnerving). The type of cyclist in general: 20-35 year-old racing steadily, I'm less worried than with a shaky-ish person on a heavy rental bike; I'll stop for a cyclist panting uphill. I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance. Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour. And cyclists who don't wear reflective gear and lights at night are idiots IMHO. (Actually so are pedestrians. Don't you folks realise that even to the most careful driver you're basically invisible?)

I kind of want to hear some thoughtful real-world practices from my fellow drivers and cyclists and parents.

@Venetiaparties I completely agree with everything you have been posting.

All this taking kids in cars is dangerous.. well yes obviously no one is disputing this but the level of risk rises enormously when you put tiny tots in cargo bikes and v small kids on the roads on bikes.
Wait till kids are older and more street aware before sending them out on the roads.

All common sense.......

But even older and more street aware kids rarely cycle now because it’s so much more dangerous - far more cars, far more car journeys, bigger SUV type cars. Back in the 1990s, when I was 12, I went out on my bike on the road in the dark to do a paper round after school and it was perfectly normal. Now when I visit my parents in the same village I feel nervous on the pavements with my own kids due to the volume of massive cars speeding down the main street at 40mph (I’d estimate ten times more cars and mostly high fronted ones). It hasn’t always been this way - in the last 30 years the priority of cars has got higher and higher. It used to be normal for kids to cycle.

The point is your kids may not even get the opportunity to see the climate change, they may never see the rising oceans or forest fires because you were too busy trying to save the whole world in your own mind to really deeply consider the safety of your own children.

You can't save the world - sorry to break it to you.

I recycle religiously, never buy plastic, have an electric car, we have been vegetarian for 35 years plus and we live as sustainably as possible - what difference have I made to the rising temperatures? Zilch. Why? Because it is mass industry that is causing the issue here mainly. Farming on an industrial scale. It does not matter about the blood, sweat and tears I have shed to try and look after the small part of the planet I occupy, until something is done at government level on a mass scale globally there really is literally no point.

If something terrible happens to one of your children do you really think you will care about the planet then? Do you really think you will look back and say it was all worth it because you made a point???

I mean can you answer that seriously ariel because it really matters.

You are insisting that you must make your climate point and that will be done by cycling with small children, but look at the COST you could pay. Look at the danger you are all in. Of course you can say that we are all giving up on the climate - no, we are not - there are safer, better and more efficient ways of making your feelings known rather than risking the lives of your most precious children.

I can not celebrate the fact you are doing this at all. I hope you don't choose to continue on the very dark and rain soaked mornings and afternoons? Drivers often just can not see you, even if you are flashing and lit up like a Christmas tree. The terrible weather combined with the dark conditions makes driving very difficult even with the best will in the world.

No one wants to kill or injure a cyclist, most drivers are very careful but a cyclist died near our house three weeks ago, the lilac flowers are still tied to the lamp post, it saddens me that he lost his life and now won't be here for Christmas, or ever again. Every time I walk or drive past I think of him. It shouldn't happen, but it does every day.

If something terrible happens to one of your children in a car, are you going to change your rigid carcentric views? Something needs to change and things are changing albeit v slowly

"Every time I walk or drive past I think of him. It shouldn't happen, but it does every day."

It doesn't though, but do you know what does...? Yes, you guessed it, severe road traffic accidents involving cars.

Statistically speaking you are at far more risk in a car than you are on a bike, but things like facts and stuff are clearly not your strong point.

Bloody hell @Venetiaparties overly heavy or what.

Best get all those pedestrians off the pavement too while you're at it, just so all those cars can carry on.

What is the specific risk aversion to cycling? I'm surprised you ride horses and presumably let your kids ride them? From a horse owning family and know quite a few people who've been very badly injured and one killed when out riding. In my mind it seems like the more dangerous activity, although haven't checked stats.

Conversely I know loads more people that ride bikes, mostly commuting in London and although most people I know, including myself, have been in pretty hairy accidents I only know one person who's had a life changing injury (blind) from being in a crash

@Venetiaparties what a bunch of tosh you write!

I don't cycle to make a point. I cycle because it gets me places quicker, it's easier to park, it's healthier, I'm not adding extra air pollution to the atmosphere & it uses less energy. As odd as it would seem to you I'm sure, I would feel guilty if I drove a short journey which could be walked or cycled. That said, I would never cycle anywhere I would consider too dangerous to cycle. All life involves a certain level of risk and it's up to the individual to judge what's sensible.

I noticed you didn't answer my point about your horse riding being a highly risky activity when you examine the statistics (which does make me suspect you are indeed a troll, as another poster suggested). I do not personally know of a single child injured while on a bike ridden by a parent, but I do know of one severely paralysed falling off a horse. But you crack on with your delusions if that's what keeps you happy...

No one is talking about the dangers for adults?! They are pointing out the risks for small children!

Why are people deliberately skirting around the unavoidable truth that small children on bikes and sat in cargo bike would be crushed and severely injured if not dead if a car accident happened on the road?!

@misssunshine4040 I was talking about the risks to children, within the context of adults cycling them on cargo bikes. I don't get your point to be honest - yes in an accident with a car a cargo bike would come off badly, but so do pedestrians when hit by a car. And before you say that's less likely because pedestrians are on the pavement whereas cars are in the road, the statistics would suggest otherwise. Plently of opportunity for pedestrians to get hit when crossings roads / driveways. What will make everyone safer is less cars on the road, so I stand by my opinion that parents cycling their kids should be encouraged rather than villified.

Yes but crossing the road etc is an unavoidable risk isn't it.
Using a cargo bike and placing your child purposely in the way of fast moving traffic with minimal protection is a choice and a risk that is unnecessary.
Cars are the problem of course but we don't live in a society that is kind to cyclists and it feels like a huge risk for what? Just wait until until your kids are older

At what age do you recommend approving their imminent deaths?

Miss sunshine, but driving down a motorway at 80 miles an hour with kids in your car is an acceptable risk? Or how about skiing? that's a hugely popular family activity in some sectors of society - is it just cycling you disapprove of?

A bit like the hundreds of parents pushing prams and buggies into the road before stepping into it themselves really.

I often see parents enter zebra crossings when they haven't established whether anyone is going to stop. It's even more frightening than seeing someone on a bike.

Stats are firmly against pedestrians sadly but is interesting how people ignore stats in favour of their own fears and interpretation.

Again they are not comparable are they. Neither is talking about pushing a pram across a street.
Driving you kids in cars is almost unavoidable but as the previous poster said, cars are designed to withstand collisions and car seats and offer protection. A bike and a cart do not.

Hobbies for kids young enough to fit into carts on bikes are the not what's being discussed ? 4 and 5 year olds won't be skiing down a full face ski slope nor will they be riding a pony off a lead rein until competent.

Cycling again is absolutely,... In a park, not in rush hour traffic at the age of 5.
Why is this such a problematic view ?

No it's not comparable because walking in the street is much more dangerous than cycling.

You’ve literally never seen anything like this?

Maybe you need to get out more? It is really normal in towns with narrow streets.

Not for a 5 year old it's not ffs!

Even brake.org the road safety charity advise children under 10 should not cycle near motorised traffic.

Highly impractical. Young children cycle all round the estates where I live. Cars are also everywhere on the estates. It's impossible for young kids to cycle anywhere in many towns without coming across motorised vehicles, mainly because cars dominate every part of the UK. You might as well tell kids never to leave the house. Great idea.

Quite why you refuse to accept that being a pedestrian is far more dangerous and kills more people of all ages is beyond me.

Brake are against everything so there's no surprise there.

RoSPA have published figures for cyclists here:

www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/cyclists-and-motorcyclists/accident-rates

An article on pedestrian casualties can be found here:

www.livingstreets.org.uk/news-and-blog/press-media/new-dft-stats-reveal-increase-in-pedestrian-fatalities

There's quite a contrast.

Because we are not talking about people of all ages!!
Yes I accept that being a pedestrian is more dangerous than cycling to people of all ages but we are discussing 5 year olds cycling on roads with traffic. Not people of all ages.

Young children in trailers attached to bikes and little children on the roads cycling to school etc at 5 years old is an unreasonable risk. No one is talking about the rest of the population.

Where did anyone say they were referring to the general population when discussing the risks?

But you have no actual evidence, that children are at more risk than adults. You are just basing that on your own risk perception and fears. I would expect children to be safer than adults on the whole, as they are normally being supervised by a responsible adult.

Do I cycle my kids to school in a cargo bike - Yes

Would I cycle with my kids in a trailer behind me? No, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it personally - I like to be able to see them

Would I let my 5 year old cycle in the road? No, at this age and around where we live it's safer for them to cycle on the pavement. But I can see in certain circumstances (e.g. roads with lots of driveways) it may well be safer for them to ride in the road with the adult.

But I wouldn't criticise other parents for doing either of the above. Just because I'm not comfortable with it myself, doesn't mean they are taking an unreasonable risk. Unless you have hard statistical evidence that it's significantly more risky than all the other risky things in life we let our children do (e.g. skiing, horse riding, car rides) then you should keep your judgemental views to yourself.

Surely the fact that by their size and fragility alone makes them more vulnerable to a road accident than an adult.
Perception of risk, reaction time etc added to the fact that their small body stands no chance next to a car?

It's common sense, no one needs statistics to see this.
I did try and look some up but there isn't adequate data as not enough people use them to collect it.
Austria are considering their stance on them when a car rear ended a bike trailer killing 2 infants.

You do you and cycle with your kids in a bike but fact is, if your bike got clipped or worse then it's just unthinkable to put them in that situation.

I did read that children presenting in hospital under 9 from bike accidents were mostly passengers on their parents bikes/ trailers

My dc are not interested in riding horses they are teens, I ride horses but just trotting. I have never fallen from my horse to date and would never go out on the roads - it is very dangerous. The same as cycling.

So after all the pages and pages of bleating you don't even allow your children to cycle on the road after all!

Classic!

Jesus what a total waste of time.

And just to say you can't randomly call people trolls just because they disagree with you!