to ask views on the 5-year-old cycling and Sajid Javid video?

[allswellthatends]

Maybe this has been debated to death already because the story came out Nov 11 but it's not showing up on search here. A dad's helmet camera catches a driver passing his 5yo by what he felt was too close, and Sajid Javid and Jeremy Vine got into a disagreement about what the driver should have done.

I live in London and I think (hope) I'm very good with cyclists if only because I'm not usually in a rush. Also I cycle, and my children cycle more. And I'm used to the countryside rule of not coming too close to horse riders . In this particular case, a small child, I would have stopped completely or slowed to a crawl.

Still, London roads are very narrow, traffic is generally quite slow-moving anyway, and so observing a 1.5m distance isn't always practical. It seemed to me that it also makes a difference if the driver is coming towards the cyclist (who can therefore see the car) or from behind (which as a cyclist I find much more unnerving). The type of cyclist in general: 20-35 year-old racing steadily, I'm less worried than with a shaky-ish person on a heavy rental bike; I'll stop for a cyclist panting uphill. I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance. Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour. And cyclists who don't wear reflective gear and lights at night are idiots IMHO. (Actually so are pedestrians. Don't you folks realise that even to the most careful driver you're basically invisible?)

I kind of want to hear some thoughtful real-world practices from my fellow drivers and cyclists and parents.

Lunar, what your figures do not take into account is the comparative numbers of pedestrians - everyone, and pedestrian journeys, compared to the small number of cyclists and cycling journeys. And every cyclist is sometimes a pedestrian. It is probably a only a minority who do more cycle journeys than walking journeys.

Again, you have not taken into account the shear number of person/miles travelled in motor vehicles each year compared to the number of person/miles travelled on bikes.

Venetian, she said she did not allow her 5 year-old child to cycle on the road, she didn't say all children forever. Incidentally, my kids have just gone off to school on their bikes.

Missunshine - you have a very carcentric view of the world, driving your kids in cars is not 'almost completely unavoidable', if you don't have a car.

Out of curiosity, did you do this in London? I cycle in London and do this sometimes when there is really no space om the left (and i tend to err on the side of caution rather than squeeze through where a lot of other cyclists might squeeze through), but I often feel like I'm causing more anger at me from other bikes piling up behind or trying to go round either side, a d taking up a full place in traffic when the car behind seems to want to be bumper to bumper as if those extra few centimeters will get them there faster. I try to make the right decision reading each situation but sometimes it doesn't seem so clear cut, and sometimes filtering looks like the preferred alternative for all.

Driving you kids in cars is almost unavoidable

Well this is going to blow your mind, but not everyone owns cars

*So after all the pages and pages of bleating you don't even allow your children to cycle on the road after all!

Classic!

Jesus what a total waste of time.*

If you read my original post, I was specifically challenging your (and the OP's) judgemental views on cargo bikes. I wasn't talking about kids road cycling themselves, though as I said earlier, I wouldn't negatively judge this. As you obviously have difficulties with reading and comprehension, there's not much point engaging with you further on this topic.

This is the best take I've seen on it. The 5 year old is the most sensible one in that road and both the driver and father made potentially serious mistakes.

road.cc/content/news/ashley-neal-reacts-viral-video-five-year-old-cyclist-297345

If you actually looked at the links you'd be able to compare child accident rates vs child pedestrian rates 🙄. Jeepers creepers.

Absolutely! When I’m cycling in a parked car situation like that, regardless of who does or doesn’t have right of way, I would give way to the oncoming motorists which is what the little boy instinctively wanted to do. It was his fool of a dad who told him to go on.

Seriously?

Are you suggesting that 9 recorded cycling deaths under the age of 15 is difficult to quantify? I accept that the exact number of children cycling is unknown (despite us all seeing them around us) but 9 deaths vs millions of children between 5-15?

That some excuse there.

I think it's pretty obvious that the percentages would be low.

I think we could all agree that the vast majority of children cycling, between age 5-15 occurs close to home in estates and more residential areas. However, given over 50% of accidents occur within 5 miles from your doorstep, it would seem that cycling close to home is potentially the most dangerous.

Where I live, kids pop out between parked cars and being kids have little regard for anything. You have to expect it so driving around has to be done with due caution. No problem as I'd rather see kids out enjoying themselves that indoors.

Yeah I agree. The big lesson as he says is the terrible driving, but we didn't need a driving instructor to point that out.

What I don't agree with is good opinion, which is no more valid than anyone else's, that the father was to blame.

The dad and the kid were acting within the law, the driver was not. That's the whole story. You may think it's stupid, anyone is entitled to think it's a stupid thing to do. But there was no reason for the driver to endanger the child, you can see the driver hesitate as they get to the point they could have stopped and he cracked on. He had no idea the kid was 5 years old, kid could have been 8, kid could have been obviously an adult and it still would have been shit driving that unduly risked someone's life

*what I don't agree with is his opinion

There is a "law" in internet cycling discussions that is "no matter how bad the driving, drivers will excuse it if there's a cyclist involved"

Which sums up every Mumsnet discussion about cycling ever

Agree @OneTC

I've watched the video a few times now and genuinely don't see what the issue is with that road. Cycling to school should be applauded and that road doesn't look particularly dangerous, bar the idiot who should've given way.

What I see is just the (sadly) usual lack of common decency & sense of entitlement by people over others.

The child was practically through the gap, he was there first car should have waited. Replace bike with car and this is what would have happened.

Seriously?
Are you suggesting that 9 recorded cycling deaths under the age of 15 is difficult to quantify? I accept that the exact number of children cycling is unknown (despite us all seeing them around us) but 9 deaths vs millions of children between 5-15?
That some excuse there.
I think it's pretty obvious that the percentages would be low.

I seriously think you have completely misunderstood. Of course it's not hard to quantify a base number. It's not deaths in relation to how many million children there are in the UK. It's death's in relation to how many miles those same children will have travelled in motorised vehicles compared to how many miles they would have cycled. In terms of children aged 5 to 9, the answer would be - not many!

Cycling is genuinely 15x more likely to kill you than going in a car, per billion miles traveled. Both figures make the chance of it actually happening To You pretty favourable odds though

Travelling by motorcycle dwarfs either though

Devoutspoken · Today 08:26
Missunshine - you have a very carcentric view of the world, driving your kids in cars is not 'almost completely unavoidable', if you don't have a car.

It is just the way she phrased it. I am sure most children whose parents don't have a car will have been driven in a car, by family members, friends or neighbours. They will likely have been in a taxi or on a bus. Unless, of course, their parents are total recluses.

Thanks OneTC. I really wasn't going to trawl through a lot of stats to try and quantify this but this certainly makes sense.

Cecily p, so plenty of kids are not regularly travelling in cars

Skiing is pretty dangerous too and yet that's somehow a more acceptable risk to take

Who said 'regularly'? Irregular doesn't mean never. My parents didn't drive, never owned a car. Not unusual for those days. Still covered way more miles in cars than I ever did on my bike.

OneTC · Today 10:16
There is a "law" in internet cycling discussions that is "no matter how bad the driving, drivers will excuse it if there's a cyclist involved"

No, I definitely think the driver should have stopped. However, the dad further compounds his stupidity by having a rant about the driver so the kid, while still cycling in the road, actually turns round to hear better what dad is saying.