to ask views on the 5-year-old cycling and Sajid Javid video?

[allswellthatends]

Maybe this has been debated to death already because the story came out Nov 11 but it's not showing up on search here. A dad's helmet camera catches a driver passing his 5yo by what he felt was too close, and Sajid Javid and Jeremy Vine got into a disagreement about what the driver should have done.

I live in London and I think (hope) I'm very good with cyclists if only because I'm not usually in a rush. Also I cycle, and my children cycle more. And I'm used to the countryside rule of not coming too close to horse riders . In this particular case, a small child, I would have stopped completely or slowed to a crawl.

Still, London roads are very narrow, traffic is generally quite slow-moving anyway, and so observing a 1.5m distance isn't always practical. It seemed to me that it also makes a difference if the driver is coming towards the cyclist (who can therefore see the car) or from behind (which as a cyclist I find much more unnerving). The type of cyclist in general: 20-35 year-old racing steadily, I'm less worried than with a shaky-ish person on a heavy rental bike; I'll stop for a cyclist panting uphill. I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance. Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour. And cyclists who don't wear reflective gear and lights at night are idiots IMHO. (Actually so are pedestrians. Don't you folks realise that even to the most careful driver you're basically invisible?)

I kind of want to hear some thoughtful real-world practices from my fellow drivers and cyclists and parents.

Okay. Let me spell it out slowly for you.

You can raise people to understand the 'rules' as much as you like, it doesn't mean they actually care or will abide by them! Your child is still at massive risk with 'alternative transport' because there are so many risk factors involved with little children cycling on main roads.

If you can't see that risk, or feel it is not there I can't help you. You will most likely find out the hard way. Young children in carriers/bikes on busy roads or main roads is a lethal combination. We don't even cycle or ride here and it is very quiet, because you will always get amazon drivers or the odd teenager hacking along with no care for you and your kid.

I don't care if YOU think it is fine. Most people don't agree with you, because most people are aware of the number of knobs driving on the road that are reckless and indifferent to the fragility of your child's tiny body and bones.

A kid strapped into a car seat is far more likely to be in accident than when I take my kids for a cycle on quiet rural roads. Like it or not that is an absolute fact.

And it's still deflecting from the issue that the behaviour that needs to change is the people in the cars, not the people on bikes.

Parent completely wrong.

I watched the video and don't have much of opinion about it but I find it really weird that such a high profile politican would wade in on the matter. A real "don't these people have anything more important to do?" moment.

Victim blaming and making allowances for aggressors.

Really reminds me of something else but can't put my finger on it...

That is your view, I don't share it, at all.
It is your life (and your child's) and your decision.

It is the behaviour of cars and motorists that cause the 'lethal combination'. They should change their behaviour/ we should change the structure of roads to account for this - not tell children not to go out on bikes. It's exactly like saying women shouldn't go out on their own at night.

A kid strapped in a car seat will walk away from 99% percent of accidents. A kid on a cycle in a ‘quiet’ rural road is very likely to die even when hit at 20mph. Ultimately this comes down to love. If you love your child you will not needlessly put them at risk at 5 when they don’t have the ability to even understand road safety / risks.

I’m another one that read your comments on cyclists stopping at red lights with an open mouth.

So we mostly walk / scoot to school and see lots of others cycling to school on a daily basis. Primary aged children are generally on the pavement with the adult jogging behind them or cycling next to them on the road. VERY rarely see such a young child cycling on the actual road and the people I know who take their children on the road only target “easy” roads they know and have extremely competent cyclists..

It's not my view, it's just the truth of the matter on both counts.

Cyclists are to blame too. Example: most fatal cyclist related accidents are due to them rushing through a red light or hitting pedestrians on the pavement. I think a cycling license should be mandatory before anyone is allowed to cycle on the roads.

Oh do sod off with this nonsense about "loving my kids".

Where are you pulling those "facts" about the causes of cycle accidents, exactly?

Victim blaming! Seriously 😂

What should I say, oh poor you for subjecting your small child to the equivalent of Russian Roulette every single day, and to quietly point out we don't live in an idealised, romantic world where everyone is very considerate and careful of each other very sadly!

It is a bloody jungle on the road with every beast for himself, and you want to subject your tiny kids to that??
Be my guest, but don't scream it isn't fair when someone crashes into you because they were momentarily distracted/didn't see you/had a fly buzzing around or the million other reasons why drivers can't and don't always pay attention.
Cool. You keep taking your little kids out.
You do you.
You know the risks, and you don't care about them. Fine.

Where is this statistic from? I can't find it. The ones I can find say it's lorries turning left and crushing cyclists.

Yes you're saying that drivers are running amok killing people so we should just adjust our behaviour accordingly and in our own detriment.

That's pretty much the definition of victim blaming yes

Near me there is a very busy road. There is a really good cycle path that cost the council a tonne to out in place. And cyclists still ignore it and cycle in the road. I don’t understand why at all? It’s such a dangerous road, yet some of them insist. Seems crazy to me.

I don’t cycle so I can’t comment on what the father should and shouldn’t have done or where the child should have been or who had right of way. But as a driver I am frightened of cyclists and motorbikes and I hate driving anywhere near them and as a result I always give loads of room, stay well back or stop for them to move.

Also I have been hit as a pedestrian by a cyclist when I was a child, it’s not acceptable for you to run red lights and not follow the Highway Code.

It is a bloody jungle on the road with every beast for himself

And you think telling children not to cycle on the road is going to prevent this from being the case? Or are you happy to have this continue in a world your kids are growing up in?

And in this dream world cyclists always refer to always is the Netherlands as their own utopia. Having never actually been there!

I asked our Dutch friends why kids don't cycle in the city centres and are rarely seen in carriers although I have seen the odd new born baby and puppy hanging on every once in a while in a basket, but on the whole not too many kids and why with so many cycle lanes and it is super bike friendly ? The reason? Because the other cyclists are so fucking fast and dangerous it is a massive hazard for their kids.
Not the drivers or the buses, or the trams, but the crazed zealots hurtling through the city centres without a care for anyone else. So this utopia you dream about doesn't even happen in the cycling utopia that is the Netherlands! They sensibly take their children along the sea front and other zones that are safe for them.

This is not about cycling.
This is zealot cyclist parents kicking off about the 'system' and weaponising their small children.

'I will not bend to the cars!!' screeches the cyclist raging at all the drivers. Their kids hanging on, no helmets to be seen, tiny bodies totally oblivious to the danger they are in. It would be sad if it were not so bloody dangerous.

"This is zealot cyclist parents kicking off about the 'system' and weaponising their small children."

This has to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on mumsnet. Get a grip.

I will teach my children to take care of themselves, to protect their bodies and not to trust that other people will automatically consider their wellbeing - they won't. I am realistic.
I will teach my children to cycle in places with proper lanes and lakes and the areas where it is car free.

I will not lie to my children and say they are safe when they are not, that the highway code will save them, it won't. And that drivers pay attention at all times, they certainly don't. I will share the fatalities of bike accidents and injuries and ask them to make a considered decision as an adult, but for now my duty is to keep them safe from harm.

The toxic fumes alone would be enough to stop me, putting aside the danger for a moment. They are directly breathing in the exhaust fumes, and this is extremely bad for their health

How do you move about without this exposure?

You know that being inside a car exposes you to way higher particulate levels than outside on a bike or walking, don't you?

Oh.

Live in the country!

The toxic fumes alone would be enough to stop me, putting aside the danger for a moment. They are directly breathing in the exhaust fumes, and this is extremely bad for their health

People inside cars breathe in much more exhaust fumes than people outside cars. Counter intuitive, but this is a proven fact.