to ask views on the 5-year-old cycling and Sajid Javid video?

[allswellthatends]

Maybe this has been debated to death already because the story came out Nov 11 but it's not showing up on search here. A dad's helmet camera catches a driver passing his 5yo by what he felt was too close, and Sajid Javid and Jeremy Vine got into a disagreement about what the driver should have done.

I live in London and I think (hope) I'm very good with cyclists if only because I'm not usually in a rush. Also I cycle, and my children cycle more. And I'm used to the countryside rule of not coming too close to horse riders . In this particular case, a small child, I would have stopped completely or slowed to a crawl.

Still, London roads are very narrow, traffic is generally quite slow-moving anyway, and so observing a 1.5m distance isn't always practical. It seemed to me that it also makes a difference if the driver is coming towards the cyclist (who can therefore see the car) or from behind (which as a cyclist I find much more unnerving). The type of cyclist in general: 20-35 year-old racing steadily, I'm less worried than with a shaky-ish person on a heavy rental bike; I'll stop for a cyclist panting uphill. I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance. Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour. And cyclists who don't wear reflective gear and lights at night are idiots IMHO. (Actually so are pedestrians. Don't you folks realise that even to the most careful driver you're basically invisible?)

I kind of want to hear some thoughtful real-world practices from my fellow drivers and cyclists and parents.

My DS is 6 and a really good cyclist. He was really good at 5. My DH cycles a lot, he is very careful and mindful of the rules of the road.

I simply cannot understand allowing a 5 year old to cycle on a road with cars. Is he legally allowed? I guess so. Should cars be really careful. Of course. Is the dad technically correct, maybe he is- whatever. But I think it's completely irresponsible. The child is 5. What if a dog jumped out, or a delivery cyclist whizzed past at speed, or there was a shit driver. Who cares if you were 'right' and your child was 'allowed' to be there. I think the dad put his child in a dangerous situation.

IMO that father is teaching that child to always assume that cars will give way, and that’s very dangerous. A cyclist will always come out worse in this scenario, and it’s best for them to be cautious.
The child actually questions the father’s decision to keep going, and then the father swears within the child’s hearing.

In similar circumstances I used to cycle beside DDs... Forced drivers to give more space and protected them. (It was usually DD1 on her own bike, then me with DD2 in the trailer. We couldn't fit on pavement which was full of pedestrians and potholes)

That driver could have easy slowed a bit to allow cyclists out of bottleneck.

Totally lost me at the red light point. The rules of the road apply to cyclists just as much as anyone else. If stopping would cause a loss of balance then insufficient breaking distance is being allowed for.

Seems to me cyclists want to have their cake and eat it too.

This will be a bin fight

no laws where broken by the father or son on bikes

the driver ignored the Highway Code

whataboutery will be used to justify the driver ignoring the Highway code

why do we live in a country where it’s considered normal for a 5 year old not to be able to ride on the road safely and people

If you're accompanying your 5yo on their bike, it's a really good idea to ride behind them, rather than in front of them. This enables you to practice what's called 'protective cycling', and means you can always see your child and communicate to them. If they're behind you, this isn't always possible.

Not sure what you're asking people to vote on here - could you be more specific about what you mean by 'reasonable'/ 'unreasonable'?

No idea what you’re referring to, is there a link?

Red lights apply to cyclists too. Just because you drive too doesn’t mean your opinion is worth more.

The rest of your stream of consciousness was gabbledegook.

You can be both right and have a dead or seriously injured child. Does being right make that okay?
There are plenty of ways I could choose to let a five year old explore danger and risk. Cycling down a Lindon street at the mercy of all other drivers isn't one I would personally choose.
I wasn't surprised he was with his father

"Who cares if you were 'right' and your child was 'allowed' to be there. I think the dad put his child in a dangerous situation."

This^.
Re driving in general, my DH used to say that just because you have "right of way" doesn't mean you have to enforce it. Having a 5 yr old cycling on this road with cars parked on both sides, thereby narrowing the road would worry me. I don't think it was safe.

This. As a pedestrian, it gives me the rage when I am trying to cross the road safely with two young children and most cyclists whizz through the red light full pelt. It’s totally unacceptable.

I think all car drivers should be made to cycle on a road (or sit in a static bike) and have a car go past them with about 30cm clearance at 30mph.
That might encourage drivers to give cyclists a decent amount of space.

If there isn't enough space to overtake safely, you wait.

I've not seen the video or discussion you are talking about.

why do we live in a country where it’s considered normal for a 5 year old not to be able to ride on the road safely and people

This is true. I don't cycle because I'm fearful but I'm bloody grateful many do. Would people prefer all the cyclists to swap to cars, think of the congestion then.

It might be safer for cyclists not to stop at red lights. But what about people crossing the road? How is it safer for us?

I can't understand why anyone would be stupid enough to allow their 5 year old to cycle on the road.

At that age my son would cycle to birthday parties with me, always in the road in our LTN unless it was a main road. The training idid in family cycling said to met him go in front. For busy roads and junctions he would be on inside (but that's not possible on residential streets as it pushes him into the door zone).

The kid in the video is on his own street 100m from home. I've every sympathy for the parent in using the road (as is the law - even if little kids are ok on the pavement, people would tut the dad).

What the vid shows is a reminder to drivers that they can Always Slow Down (or even stop), to make it comfortable and under control for the cyclist to pass (where 1.5m is not possible), rather than everyone holding their breath.

Sajud Javid was v.unreasonable to comment, especially as he was wrong.

You are v.unreasonable to have a dig at cargo bikes.

The car driver is wrong and didn’t follow the Highway Code!

The father put his child in a dangerous position. There are so many idiots on the road .. drunks/drugs, without insurance or license etc. The most dangerous thing about driving is other drivers.

Wish the UK was more cycle freely like in Netherlands and other European cities. There are clear sections for bikes, trams, cars and pedestrians.

Because somebody invented the internal combustion engine, the industrial revolution happened and throughout this, the fundamental laws of physics and biology never changed?

3000 years ago, a dad like this would have been bitching about why snakes were allowed to exist and how unfair it was that one nearly bit his five year old when he took it to play in a fucking snake pit.

agree with this.

I'm very pro cyclist, but, the people who filter through cars stopped at lights to put themselves at the front of the queue really piss me off.

The most dangerous time for a cyclist is being overtaken, why would you, after-being overtaken, put yourself in front of the same cars, only to slow them down, and then be overtaken again - In some sequences of lights I might overtake the same cyclist half a dozen times in 5 or 10 minutes.

Wasn't there a cycle lane the kid should've been in, wasn't there a sign saying oncoming traffic had priority?

The parent was being an irresponsible twat. Who lets a small child cycle in the middle of a busy road?!

3000 years ago, a dad like this would have been bitching about why snakes were allowed to exist and how unfair it was that one nearly bit his five year old when he took it to play in a fucking snake pit.

You're comparing a car & driver & highway code to a snake? 😆

All of this. The father is an idiot.

Cyclists shouldn't run red lights.

I'm in London, lots of cyclists & awful traffic. The traffics would be gridlock if all those cyclists used cars.

Yes, tnere were two small cyclist sections that they didn’t use.

“Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour.”

Surely this is because they are taking their kids to school, OP? Much better for all of us they are transporting their kids on a bike rather than a car. And it’s the impatience to get past which causes drivers to dangerously overtake or tailgate. Everyone on the roads has to accept they sometimes have to go at cyclist speed for a while.

@ivykaty44

actually on that video it was a very 50 50 thing.
i would have thought it best to have the dad being two a breast with the kid.

to me the driver was going very slow.