to ask views on the 5-year-old cycling and Sajid Javid video?

[allswellthatends]

Maybe this has been debated to death already because the story came out Nov 11 but it's not showing up on search here. A dad's helmet camera catches a driver passing his 5yo by what he felt was too close, and Sajid Javid and Jeremy Vine got into a disagreement about what the driver should have done.

I live in London and I think (hope) I'm very good with cyclists if only because I'm not usually in a rush. Also I cycle, and my children cycle more. And I'm used to the countryside rule of not coming too close to horse riders . In this particular case, a small child, I would have stopped completely or slowed to a crawl.

Still, London roads are very narrow, traffic is generally quite slow-moving anyway, and so observing a 1.5m distance isn't always practical. It seemed to me that it also makes a difference if the driver is coming towards the cyclist (who can therefore see the car) or from behind (which as a cyclist I find much more unnerving). The type of cyclist in general: 20-35 year-old racing steadily, I'm less worried than with a shaky-ish person on a heavy rental bike; I'll stop for a cyclist panting uphill. I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance. Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour. And cyclists who don't wear reflective gear and lights at night are idiots IMHO. (Actually so are pedestrians. Don't you folks realise that even to the most careful driver you're basically invisible?)

I kind of want to hear some thoughtful real-world practices from my fellow drivers and cyclists and parents.

I’m really pro cycling but wouldn’t let a 5 year old cycle on a road like this. I felt sick watching this video

Lobby for more cycle lanes. It’s far too dangerous to be in the road with cars

What's nuts is that we think it's ok for cyclists and juggernauts to share a carriageway. In a sane world this wouldn't happen.

In a slightly less sane but more sane than this one world pedestrians (soft, slow, no protection) would have the right of way everywhere and cars would have to stop for them to cross the road instead of the other way round. Cyclists would be next up the priority ladder (soft, bit faster, bit more protection).

Instead we've given priority to the big metal death machines because they are stronger and more dangerous and in fact we've built a works around having to be on time and in a rush because the technology exists, making it even worse. We spend all our time arguing over which individuals are behaving in the most annoying/dangerous way when we should be changing it all structurally.

As an aside a 5 year old has EVERY RIGHT to take up space in the world and if people can't drive safely enough not to kill one they really should not be driving.

I wouldn’t of let my child cycle there doesn’t matter if he was right or not in my opinion.

As an aside a 5 year old has EVERY RIGHT to take up space in the world and if people can't drive safely enough not to kill one they really should not be driving

That is fantasy
5 year olds are entitled to be completely safe, and that is not possible in any situation on the roads because cars are driven by humans and even with the best will in the world they make mistakes. And that mistake could cost you your child's life.
For me it would never ever be worth it, we use parks, lakes etc to cycle and would never risk losing one of our children on a road.

I don't disagree it's fantasy right now because the UK is completely car-centric. But it shouldn't be fantasy should it? If people are going to cycle as their main firm of transport I can see why they need to learn from 5. Plus pedestrians are just as vulnerable in some places and we don't suggest 5 year olds shouldn't walk on the pavement.

This.

I'd love to see 5 year olds on the road becoming the norm and enjoying the freedom that comes from cycling. Perhaps more EV's too so they're not choking on fumes whilst they're doing it.

Drivers really need to start to understand that they're not the only people on the road and that the roads aren't only for them.

I say this as someone who drives way more than I cycle.

This happened to me the other day! Crossing at a Zebra crossing, cars stopped for me on both sides. I got about half way across, then a cyclist came whizzing through and shouted at me to look where I was going! I shouted back ‘it’s a Zebra crossing!’ but he was long gone and one of the drivers thought I was shouting at him, which was awkward for a second.

He’s in the minority though and I don’t think for a moment he represents all cyclists. In general I’m very pro-cycling and even though I’m far too scared to cycle on roads myself, I applaud those who do and try to be as respectful and considerate as I possible can when I’m driving.

A 5 year old is only going to feasibly cycle in urban areas. If drivers can't drive safely in urban areas where the limit is 20-30mph then I'd agree that we can do without these people on the road.

This car centric mentality has to stop. But a lot of the problem is the obsession with SUV's, which are so tall that anything small gets swamped.

I also drive a sports car that's like an MX5 and most drivers have a hard time not driving right over me nowadays. Blind as bats. Must be a nightmare if you ride a recumbent bike or anything small.

I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance.

This is probably the most ridiculous statement I've ever read on here, and I've read a lot of them. My friends 18 year old niece recently died when a car smashed into her head on after swerving to avoid a cyclist who'd decided the red light didn't apply to them. But hey, as long as the cyclist is safer then that's fine isn't it

@Mardyface I completely agree about hierarchy. I was born/raised in another country where this has always been the case re: road rules.

The highway code changed in January to implement what your suggesting. I knew about it due to taking part in a survey about the changes. No one I talk to that drives is aware of the changes.

Why the government didn't publicize this more is beyond me

www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-changes-you-need-to-know-from-29-january-202a

This. I'd love to see 5 year olds on the road becoming the norm and enjoying the freedom that comes from cycling. Perhaps more EV's too so they're not choking on fumes whilst they're doing it. Drivers really need to start to understand that they're not the only people on the road and that the roads aren't only for them. I say this as someone who drives way more than I cycle.

Seems to me that the road system in the UK simply wasn’t designed with cyclists in mind. Quite a few European cities have made massive changes to their roads to make them better and safer for cyclists and car drivers to coexist. That’s great, but unfortunately that isn’t the case here. Until that is the case then cycling on many roads will be inherently dangerous. I’d love to see fewer cars on the road and more cyclists but it’s just not feasible as is IMO.

The cycle lane that had parked cars in you mean? That cycle lane?

Which sign are you refering to? The one saying on coming traffic had prioirty at a different section of the road that they weren't on so has no bearing on this? That is like driving along the entire A1 at 60 MPH as thats the speed limit for part of that particualr road.

Still, I suspect you know better than the Highway Code and the Police who are both on the side of the parent
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/11/watch-police-side-jeremy-vine-row-sajid-javid-five-year-old/

Yes I knew about the rule change. Unfortunately apart from the fact it wasn't publicised much it's completely unenforceable without changing the way roads are set up in my view. As an example I stopped for a pedestrian crossing the road as I turned into a street (running across suddenly actually) and the car behind went into the back of me. Their fault entirely of course, but sticking to the rules and avoiding those accidents feels unavoidable as things stand.

It was clearly very bad driving from the car and I think that's the end of it really

I've been driving for 30 years and thought the advice was considerably better publicised that previous rule changes. It was reported widely in mainstream need sources owing to it being particularly "controversial" because cyclists are a big media talking point.

I have also found its improved standards of driving around cyclists and I get much less frequent close passes and forced takeovers.

Whilst driving I have found very little difference but that's because I like many other people already did what was recently codified, ie drive respectfully and with consideration for others.

The people who are "oh my god I had to wait for xx seconds and I had to overtake because I'm that fucking important" will unfortunately never change, because they are entitled arseholes

I think mainland Europeans mostly have different attitudes towards cyclists, with the Netherlands being the standard we need to aspire to.

I agree that many European cities have been modified but I think you've got it the wrong way round. That's definitely not a snipe at you but towns, cities and their roads were here long before the car. So cars have really infiltrated UK roads and pushed everything else out, sucking the joy out or cycling, horse riding etc in the process.

It's sad that we've become so selfish that our kids can't safely ride on the road without some people victim blaming. Can you imagine telling a woman not to go somewhere because it's too dangerous?

Kids used to play football in the street and it was perfectly normal. Now it’s too dangerous for even secondary age children to cycle down residential streets to school. Why should cars have priority? The pollution is killing us. Free the kids!!

I'm a car driver but walk 90% of the time as I live central. No car has ever put me in danger at a pedestrian lights compared to the amounts of times I've been nearly hit by cyclists trying to cross even with a buggy who refuse to stop at red lights. Any how, whether your 5 yo has a right to be on a busy road or not, as a responsible parent I would never entrust my child's safety at the hands of others and leave it at their mercy.

@boringbrain , you entrust your child’s safety to others whenever you go outside, be it walking along the pavement, crossing the road, travelling by car.

UK roads are great for cycling. People have been cycling on the roads for longer than they've been driving on them. The problem is bad drivers and people thinking they own the road when in fact they've needed to get special permission to even be there

We can agree to disagree on how well it was publicised - I've been driving 30 years too .

I do agree that with regard to cyclists it does make it easier to know exactly what you are meant to do. Often I think problems around cyclists come from people not knowing and wanting to do the right thing (and not have other drivers annoyed at them) but not thinking about the extra vulnerability of cyclists. I do also think cyclists sometimes don't consider whether or not drivers can see them - eg when overtaking on the left, which is legal but really dodgy in terms of being seen.

However on urban roads with 20mph speed limits there really shouldn't be a problem just waiting a bit for cyclists. If you do overtake they always catch you up anyway so it doesn't make you get there first. As you say there will always be knob heads.

This

I find this assumption odd. I have lived in Amsterdam and it is terrifying. The bikes are everywhere and it is very easy to get run over by a bike because they do not care about pedestrians at all. They go at speeds much faster than cars and scream at you without stopping if you misunderstand when to cross. It is seriously dangerous! There are barely any children on the roads even in Amsterdam, but many more everywhere else outside of the cities. Cycle lanes everywhere are fabulous and safe but city life, thousands of people and cycling do not sit comfortably side by side anywhere I have ever lived.

The point is with the highway code and whether it's publicised or not is that when you get your license a condition of having it is keeping yourself up to date with changes to the highway code, it is a legal obligation as a driver, and conditional in drivers being allowed continued guest status on the roads.

In cities, cars are an outmoded form of transport. They take up way too much space