to ask views on the 5-year-old cycling and Sajid Javid video?

[allswellthatends]

Maybe this has been debated to death already because the story came out Nov 11 but it's not showing up on search here. A dad's helmet camera catches a driver passing his 5yo by what he felt was too close, and Sajid Javid and Jeremy Vine got into a disagreement about what the driver should have done.

I live in London and I think (hope) I'm very good with cyclists if only because I'm not usually in a rush. Also I cycle, and my children cycle more. And I'm used to the countryside rule of not coming too close to horse riders . In this particular case, a small child, I would have stopped completely or slowed to a crawl.

Still, London roads are very narrow, traffic is generally quite slow-moving anyway, and so observing a 1.5m distance isn't always practical. It seemed to me that it also makes a difference if the driver is coming towards the cyclist (who can therefore see the car) or from behind (which as a cyclist I find much more unnerving). The type of cyclist in general: 20-35 year-old racing steadily, I'm less worried than with a shaky-ish person on a heavy rental bike; I'll stop for a cyclist panting uphill. I totally get why my fellow-cyclists don't always stop for red lights: sometimes it's safer to go first while the cars are forced to stop, and also it's bad to lose your momentum and your balance. Then again I LOATHE those cargo bikes where parents move very slowly in a vehicle that blocks the full road, with precious cargo, but commonly at school/work rush hour. And cyclists who don't wear reflective gear and lights at night are idiots IMHO. (Actually so are pedestrians. Don't you folks realise that even to the most careful driver you're basically invisible?)

I kind of want to hear some thoughtful real-world practices from my fellow drivers and cyclists and parents.

And you understand it did happen with fatal consequences nearly 600 times in 15 years yes?

It happens every day where I am. I’ve had stand up rows with lorry drivers who have done it outside my children’s primary school. I’ve hit cars and vans that think it’s appropriate to drive up the pavement at children. I’ve reported any sign written van that’s done it.

at my children’s secondary there’s parents who drive round corners on the pavement. It’s mental. Utterly mental.

Father's an idiot, so is the driver.

The craziness of your area sounds terrifying, and to add unprotected infants and small children into the mix in flimsy carts or bikes is positively suicidal quite frankly just because they are 'entitled to use the road' is totally bat shit.

Zealots that would rather point score with random drivers instead of keeping their children safe from harm should be reported for neglect. The children are too young to agree to be put at such horrendous risk.

If you claim you've never seen a car driving across a pavement to/from a driveway you're a liar. If you claim you've never seen a car parked with 2 wheels up on the pavement in the UK (not all countries allow this, but it's endemic in the UK) you're a liar.

Here's a thread from a couple of years ago with lots of people saying they simply must park on pavements. Don't pretend this doesn't happen, it's just stupid.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/3687611-Would-you-like-a-ban-on-cars-parking-on-pavements

Where do you live though where you don't see people parking (often illegally) on pavements?

as someone who got hit by a cyclist when i was walking across the road at a green man and he cycled, fast, through a red light, resulting in me having long term, possibly permenant injuries, if you cant stop at a red light, you arent a safe enough cyclist to stop in an emergancy and therefore shouldnt be on the road.

in terms of the video, yes the driver should have given more space between his car and the child, or even stopped. but as we can see he didnt and whether the child has a right or not to be on the road, given how some people drive (or cycle), the having a 5 year old on the road isnt the safest decision.

Go on google street view in just about any urban area and you'll see cars parking with 2 wheels on the pavement.

I simply do not believe you have not seen this, ever.

I can only assume they live somewhere very rural where they don't have pavements, and never drive more than 2 miles from their house

And keep their eyes closed every time they're in a town

Yes I wonder where you live that nobody ever drives on the pavement for any reason @Venetiaparties . I have also been driving 30 years and see it all the time.

Also you can have a go at me for allowing my children to cycle on the road/ driving a big cargo cycle but as it happens I don't do it because it makes me too anxious. I just think that children should be entitled to ride on the road safely and it is only cars and their self-centred drivers that make it dangerous. A man teaching his child to take up deserved space on the road is the safest way to go about it.

We live in the country, so we don't always have pavements. The few pavements we have are never used for cars! Not to park on, or drive over or use for any reason. The nearest town has plentiful parking, and double yellow lines so people don't use them to park.

I don't know why on earth you would be so incredulous about it! Narrow thinking.

If I lived in a place that driving and parking on the pavements was a thing, I would probably ensure we kept to the inside of the pathway and ensure walking children were on the inside. The point of this thread is to talk about cycling and young children and not walking. You can start another thread about walking on pavements if you want to, but this one is about the dangers of little kids being on bikes and the danger they are in.

Some weirdos on here seem to think the children are safe. They are not.

It was you that brought up the carless utopia of pavements 😅

Keep going then, it is your risk not mine.

It is not safe for small children to cycle on the road. It is not safe for them to walk on the pavement either. Both are unsafe because of cars not because of their own existence. The problem is the cars and the way they are driven not the children using up space in the world.

As it happens I grew up in the countryside and now live in London and have seen cars parking on and driving across the pavement lots of times in both places. So you are obviously not looking closely enough.

Cyclists/pedestrians/horse riders etc are not safe on the roads due to the actions of motorists.

Saying "oh, they shouldn't be on the road" is just deflecting. If people are bought up to understand the rules of the road from a young age and to use alternative transport that is how things improve.

I’d be a bit worried about letting a 5yr old ride on narrow roads like that. He’s very small, seems dangerous. Reminds me a bit of DD (2) swimming teacher, she’s never used armbands because they give her false confidence. I would be worried that a small child would believe that he was actually safe on a road because he’s not.

I cycle on the pavements with my children (5 and 7) and my 7 year old cycles independently on the pavements for precisely the reason that you cannot trust motorists and I feel at their age it is safer. I also use(d) the bike trailer mainly on the pavements. But we still have motorists reversing out of their drives across the pavement at us without looking.

And some people would be very cross that we do ride on the pavements. You cannot win, you can only make the choices that you personally feel are best. I personally teach my children that a lot of drivers are idiots and that while you should know the rules, you should never trust them to follow the rules. That means for example always making sure that cars are actually stopping before you go over on the green man - I cannot count the number of times I've been waiting to cross with my children and some fuckwit has blown right through the red light with their machine that would crush a child to death.

If people are bought up to understand the rules of the road from a young age and to use alternative transport that is how things improve

Do you honestly think any parent will give one jot about being part of an improvement programme if their child is killed? Or disabled for life due to a serious accident?

I personally have no problem with people riding carefully on pavements, works fine in other countries where it's allowed.

The suggestion earlier in the thread that no one would mind if this 5 year old was in the pavement was obviously posted by someone new to MN

😂

This makes no sense.

Fairly obviously I'm not advocating anyone take a kid out on busy roads, but on the kind of quiet street that was in the video with traffic calming measures etc? Yep. I take my kids out on roads around my village all the time and they are far better road users than a lot of adults we come across.

What an eloquent use of the 'crying with laughter' emoji.

Do you honestly think any parent will give one jot about being part of an improvement programme if their child is killed?

PP didn't suggest an improvement programme, just how to ride a bike properly, a genuine life skill that will become even more relevant in years to come

Should just not train kids for proper road use?

Do you think you'd feel better if your kid gets run over because you didn't teach them?