To think someone must be able to do something - part two

[PurpleLampShades]

I’m starting a new thread as advised by some posters and because the first thread was a great source of support for me (link to first thread here).

Long story short - DS (16) is in a “relationship” with a woman 11 years older than him that I believe started before he turned 16 at the end of July, though they both denied that to police and SS. I tried everything I could think of to stop it but he walked out of the house to stay with her at the end of September and I’m struggling to maintain contact with him. I’ve barely been able to see or speak to him since he left. She has shown very controlling behaviour and he is slowly becoming isolated from me, his friends and hobbies etc. Social services are currently involved, doing an assessment, but have already said it’s very difficult to do much without him consenting to input/intervention so I think they’re trying to prepare me for a poor outcome of the assessment. I am trying to focus on keeping my relationship with him going and ensuring he knows I’m here whenever he needs me and can come home whenever he needs no questions asked.

So sorry you’re still going through this OP. Sending strength

I wonder if asking him how he would feel if he couldn't get hold a his friends when he phoned, that their gf was always answering the phone? Or if he was out with his friends and they had to keep answering their phones to their gfs? It might make him look at things a little differently.
Just thinking back to your Christmas Day, it sounded very difficult but I would have opened the fizz anyway and if she declined, so be it. Just biting off her nose to spite her face. I mean, how bad would an almost £30 bottle of fizz be? Not that bad imo.

That sounds like a very tough visit but as the other poster said it's not a bad thing to ask him some sense check questions about if he want's to eat lunch with her. Definitely speak to other parents - as a parent if I knew this was happening to my son's friend there would be no judgement and we'd be happy to help - even if just to keep an eye on things.

I'm glad he came to see you. In regard to her answering his phone (if he wasn't eating) and now having lunch with him daily, its definitely isolating/controlling behaviour. She can't even let him have food with children his own age for goodness sake.

I wonder if she has upped the ante now because he is wanting time away from her? I'd imagine her to be quiet suffocating and constantly needy. That will surely wear thin at some point.

I’m going to phone the parents of his main friends (or what were his friends) and speak to them.

I think this is a very good idea. Sunlight, and more sunlight, is what will eventually bring this to an end.

But what about you, OP? Who have you got to talk to about your own feelings and get a sympathetic ear?

I missed off saying - it is again excellent that he came to see you. And definitely not a bad thing you were a bit firmer. You are doing so well

I'd talk to the SW that she's meeting him for lunch every day. She's desperately trying to trap him in every direction, isn't she?

The comment that he was eating is obviously bollocks.
if my DH has a mouthful of food I might answer to his mum on his phone but I’d say he’s eating hang on and then pass it over when he’d swallowed!

your DS knows she’s controlling but he’s in deep right now and probably thinks that’s what it’s meant to be like being a grown up

I think you were brave to be a bit firmer with him but agree lay off and just have a chat and easy time next time. Then maybe worth pushing a few points again in a couple of weeks eg ask how he might feel if you had a new partner who had frozen him (DS) out and answered your phone if DS rang you and didn’t pass it over. Would that worry him if the tables were turned. Flip it. That in YOUR experience it seems very full on but that it’s not a criticism of either of them just not what you are used to and therefore not surprising it worries you. Plant the seeds then drop it just as you have been doing.

could you also consider saying he could come home even for the odd night and you wouldn’t stop him seeing her or criticise her. That you didn’t live full time with a partner until much later on in the relationship and it’s ok to want space and won’t mean he doesn’t care about her and suggest she will understand that too ( we know she would hate it but it suggests to DS then it’s her wrong not you)

anyway purple you are still playing it so well even tho I can see it’s breaking your heart. He loves you and he isn’t cutting you off despite her coercion. That’s a huge plus.

If he’s covering for her controlling behaviour then at some level he knows it’s not right.

I am so sorry OP. I've read your posts but not many of the other comments so apologies if this has already been suggested- is there a male member of your family that could speak to him- someone who he looks up to? Or even someone in your family or friends who is this woman's age who he has a bond with. Of course there might be no one but I wonder if hearing it from someone slightly external who he respects may have an impact?
You sound like an incredible mum doing her very best. I really hope this works out ok but life must be incredibly tough right now. I hope you have plenty of support x

@PurpleLampShades just read the thread, omg! You poor thing - as a mum to boys that sound horrific!
No practical advice other than to stay strong and keep trying to get through to him xx

You are doing so well @PurpleLampShades , I really don't know how you are managing to stay as calm as you are in his presence.

I know I didn't handle my situation well all the time, but I also don't think it hurts for DS to see you get frustrated or upset at the situation, because it's not a normal situation and he needs to know that and maybe see how it's affecting the people around him that care about him.

Hope you are getting some support for yourself. I found talking to a few close friends was helpful, even just to vent but counselling was the best for my mindset.

What can be done when it is such an obvious case of coercive control?

If he thoguht she was right he wouldn't be getting defensive.there is a difference between firmly telling you your wrong about her and being defensive and sounding like he was.
And I think your past the nicy nicy now.that was when you almost were on a balance of perhaps him coming back.bit that isn't going to happen so the boy needs to be told sometimes.if he's adult enogu to go.male excuses.argue and have a go at you then he is certainly old enough to have some back.ypur not a doormat and you won't be made one by either of them via manipulation.ypu can still be the loving mum without the pretence without babying to him.the nice not saying anything approach didn't work.
It's becomes not fair for you to keep painting on a a make each week.your then being abused too.then when does it end
.withbyou collapsed on the floor having being melted down too? You allowed to start standing your ground.he needs to hear some truth.
But I get it I do.you.cn still bring a stable.and balance to it.so that home is.still his safe space.there doesn't need to be one or thenither just like it isnt like that in any loving home.

Sorry if this has been covered but does this woman not work? How does she have time to meet DS for lunch in the day?

@kateandme i can understand where you’re coming from but the worst thing you can do to someone in an abusive relationship is push them further into it. OP has been very diplomatic only for the sake of her son. He needs to know she is his safe space & that he definitely has a place to turn to if it eventually becomes too much for him & he needs to leave. If he feels his mother is hostile he wouldn’t leave.

Christ this is awful. Surely somebody can help you.

Reading that he was just 12 in 2019 …. that really emphasises the age gap and the inappropriateness of the whole situation.

I really don’t know what I’d do it your situation op but I would say to him that he is always welcome to come to visit or stay no matter what . That way the fact that she’s most probably chipping away that your mum hates me etc . She is obviously wanting to isolate him from everyone including you when that happens it may get much worse . That way if the door is always open he will know he can go back to you.
I wish you well op .

Well done Purple, you're right to gently point out acceptable boundaries, such as getting him to agree to let you know on Wednesdays if he is coming - it's really good he could see and agree with this eventually. But you're right to tread carefully in how you deliver these messages as you have- without anger or blame, just to say something like -it would be nice to hear from you by Wed, because then I know what to expect and I'm not worrying that something is wrong, rather than show anger at him (or her) that he didn't. Again, easier said than done, and far easier for someone who is not emotionally involved in the situation (would hope social worker or safeguarding person could follow up and ask him how the contact is going tbh and raise these things). Even if you do feel you slip and show frustration (perfectly normal!) handling it like you did, steering the conversation back to safe topics is exactly the way to deal with it. You still managed to get progress and the agreement in the end, so well done for that.

Speaking to his friends' parents is also a good idea, that's another potential connection and I really hope you're able to make progress with this. Did he say anything about the sporting events? That might be a good reason to text on a safe topic, to remind him if it's coming up. Could you say you'd go with him if he can't find anyone else? Again, keeping the connection alive and him aware he is in your thoughts.

Keep going x

Thanks for all the comments.

She does work as far as I know. Something administrative that allows her to work from home some of the time I believe. Her house is not far from the college. I don’t know where the actual place of work is or if she goes into an office or anything some of the time.

I’ve suggested before that he stays the night but he always says no. Gf doesn’t like being on her own at night apparently.

The sporting events are in a few months time. I’m hoping he’ll invite his friends. I was thinking that maybe if he visits this week I might invite a couple of his friends that used to be over all the time, but I’m not sure if I should or whether I should just suggest it to DS.

Yes that's a tricky one.

I was swinging more towards asking him first, and in ways that would be better, but then he might just say no and you've got nowhere to go. How did he receive the sports tickets? Did he seem open to/keen on the idea of going with friends? Was he grateful? What was her reaction? (If you know).

In an ideal world you'd bump into one his friends and mention he's coming over to yours most Fridays and they'd be welcome to call by, then casually tell your ds just that perhaps, so it doesn't feel too manipulated and you can judge his reaction on how far to push it. He may not be ready for that yet (note the yet!) and that's okay. It's still early days of him rebuilding his relationship with you, he might be aware he's dropped his friends and it might feel too much too quickly, but you'll only know if you ask!

If you go for getting his agreement first, it might be better to talk about it in person rather than by text, if madam is montoring his phone (I'm presuming she wont like the idea!). And maybe next week just focus again on doing stuff together and chatting in general again. You could joke about how its much quiter without him but that you're surprised how much you miss him having him and his mates round making a noise! And then ask him again about how they are doing etc and say he's welcome to have them over next time if he wants to catch up with them, like he used to. If necessary could say how its good to keep friendships going etc how its easy but not good to let friendships slip when you get in a relationship, but again, no judgement! Make it his choice if you can.

Tough one though, good luck with whatever you decide x

OP I've been following your threads in horror, and I've no idea if this is a helpful thing to say or not but on the off chance, here it is.

When I was 15 I (female) ended up being groomed / involved sexually with a group of men in their mid 30s. It probably started when I was 13 and culminated a couple of years later. I didn't move in with any of them (although my then best mate did) but I did sneak off to see them, bunk of school to see them, create arguments with my parents to give a pretext for storming off so I could leave the house to see them.

I had plenty of friends my age but wasn't particularly 'cool'. However the attention from those adults was I suppose validating. I felt like I was special, that of all the women I was the one they thought was cool/funny/good looking / whatever.

Obviously as an adult I look back and can see it was actually a case that of all the girls I was the one that was easiest to groom.

But that validation feeling was powerful (in that it gave them power, while making me think I had the power) it made me not only feel special and more/better/cooler/etc than my peers but it also made me do things I was not comfortable or happy with to ensure I continued to be seen as more/better/cooler than my peers. My friends who were not acquainted with those arseholes were worried, and tried to put me off it, and said it was weird and wrong. But I felt I was more mature (because these men wouldn't be interested otherwise, right? Right?) so what did they know. They were just kids, I was all grown up.

My parents tried shouting. They tried grounding me. They tried ignoring it. They tried everything. The thing that got through to me was my Dad, one day he just broke down, he looked at me with such dispair and he said 'what are you doing? Why are you doing this? You're making your mother ill. She's not sleeping. She's not eating. We're worried sick. Please stop'

It was like having a bucket of cold water thrown over me. I had the sudden realisation that it wasn't that they didn't love me/know me/understand me as much as these people I was spending time with. They loved me /understood me/knew me far better. And they were worried sick. That what I was doing was not safe, was not OK, was not normal because it was not right, not because I was so very special and unique.

I don't know if it will help. But I do wonder if your DS needs to see what he's doing to you. He obviously loves you, or he wouldn't be defying her to come and see you - and I'm sure it is a defiance.

I wonder if you let him see how hurt and sad you are, not to blame him or be angry, but to tell him you miss him, you miss him being at home and seeing him every day. You're worried and you care and you don't understand why he's doing this .i suppose I mean stop being 'strong mum' so he feels he can keep blustering on and let him see a window into how this is really affecting you. So he has to actually stop and look at what he is doing. Hopefully it will do what it did for me and give something for all my little seeds of doubt to cling onto and start to grow together into one mass of realisation.

[Flowers] @BeandQueue

I agree with previous poster OP, after all this time it might be good if your DS actually discovered you in tears, he's bound to ask what's wrong, and then you could tell him that you really are worried about the fact that he's not doing things that young men of his age would normally do. That while being in a relationship with an older woman might make him feel grown up, but in actual fact, it appears to be stopping him trying new things, because he's spending all his time with his GF, and that's not normal in any relationship. If you and his Dad spent time apart doing things that your son was aware of, you could perhaps point out, that you didn't spend all your time in each others pockets. Maybe you could point out that a woman of her age, has had 11 years to go out with friends, travel the world, have lots of different boyfriends, try different jobs, etc. which is fine and the way it should be, but you are worried that she seems to want to stop him even seeing his Mum, let alone spending time with his mates, or playing football. These are all things that have just sprung to my mind OP, but knowing him as a Mum does, I'm sure you know the sort of things that might get him enthusiastic, other than this horrible, manipulating bitch. Another example, has he ever shown any interest in playing golf or cycling - sports that might appeal to him, does he know what he wants to do when he leaves college, if he's mentioned a type of work that he'd like to do, you could suggest something he could be doing to prepare for that. I'm sure if you put your mind to it, you can come up with some more ideas.

As for the fact that your DS didn't have his phone at college with him, and is now having lunch with her every day, I would say that she's probably pointed out that he'll be seeing her at lunch time, and she'll pick him up after college, so he doesn't really need it, and of course terrible interfering Mother might be interfering with his classes by her frequent texts, blah, blah. Another way of controlling him, making sure he doesn't speak or text anyone that she doesn't know about. Just so you're aware, I've experienced this sort of controlling behaviour, and how these people manipulate others into thinking that the only thing they need in life is them, which of course any 'normal' person knows is totally wrong, but love bombing them, makes them feel that they can't possibly complain, because who can complain about being made to feel loved?

Sorry this is so long, I guess having read all your posts, I felt I might finally have something useful to contribute. I feel confident that he will EVENTUALLY see the light OP, it may take months, or even years, but it will happen, so in the meantime, you need to look after yourself, maybe find some new hobbies or friends, to help take your mind off things in the meantime, but just make sure that he ALWAYS knows you're there for him. Sending a hug your way!

I've been following and hoping the GF would have become bored of your son by now and you'd be picking up the pieces of his broken heart (terrible but he'd be away from her spell). Your DS has stated you don't like GF, how has he arrived at that conclusion? Have you raised this as a discussion point? If GF has persuaded him of this, surely you'd be able to point out all the nice things you've attempted to do to get to know her etc Could you somehow manage to gain an invite to her house to see DS in his 'new home envirnoment'. Try to prove to him (albeit falsely) that you're interested in getting to know them as a couple. Surely, there'll reach a point where he will begin to question himself and the statements he is making (brainwashed by GF)?!

You have amazing self-control to have held yourself and your anger in.