Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Goodbye Monarchy, as is

458 replies

Poopoolittlerabbit · 14/11/2022 00:00

that’s it really. I’m not fussed about the ‘king’ -
happy to downgrade the entire system.
the jewels, the palaces, the changing of the guard belong to the country, and/or people … if Charles buggers off we keep all the tourist attractions, and all that people say makes the royal family worth while ££
now the Queen has gone, the ‘firm’ needs to go
done with them. AIBU?

OP posts:
Henuinequest · 26/11/2022 18:06

We don’t have a written constitution. End of.
and yes, we should have one. Makes the weaselling royals, and politicians for that matter, more accountable.

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 18:26

Henuinequest · 26/11/2022 18:06

We don’t have a written constitution. End of.
and yes, we should have one. Makes the weaselling royals, and politicians for that matter, more accountable.

How does it do this and who would write it?

Blossomtoes · 26/11/2022 18:30

Yes we should have a written constitution. But if we already have a codified one it should be pretty easy to collate all the disparate components in one place.

Henuinequest · 26/11/2022 19:22

‘How does it do this and who would write it?’

Is that a serious question??

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 19:29

Henuinequest · 26/11/2022 19:22

‘How does it do this and who would write it?’

Is that a serious question??

Yes I’m interested beyond ‘end of’ type statements

I’m happy with an uncodified constitution but ok to be convinced if you feel strongly - who would write it and why would it do as you say

Blossomtoes · 26/11/2022 19:37

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 19:29

Yes I’m interested beyond ‘end of’ type statements

I’m happy with an uncodified constitution but ok to be convinced if you feel strongly - who would write it and why would it do as you say

Just told you Marsha. All it needs is for the disparate bits to be collated.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 19:37

You can ‘tell me’ but I’m interested in pp view

Blossomtoes · 26/11/2022 19:38

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 19:37

You can ‘tell me’ but I’m interested in pp view

🙄

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 19:42

yes give up that’s the idea.

Blossomtoes · 26/11/2022 20:17

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 19:42

yes give up that’s the idea.

Not much point in doing anything else if you refuse to engage, is there?

MarshaBradyo · 26/11/2022 20:25

Blossomtoes · 26/11/2022 20:17

Not much point in doing anything else if you refuse to engage, is there?

That’s right. I’m happy with that there are loads of other posters instead, enjoy

Florenz · 26/11/2022 20:31

The Magna Carta is our constitution.

cakeorwine · 26/11/2022 21:08

Florenz · 26/11/2022 20:31

The Magna Carta is our constitution.

I think it's way more complicated than that.

www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/constitution/

A constitution is the set of principles and rules by which a country is organised and it is usually contained in one document. In the UK a constitution has never been codified in this way; instead, the various statutes, conventions, judicial decisions and treaties which, taken together, govern how the UK is run are referred to collectively as the British Constitution.

Henuinequest · 27/11/2022 08:15

‘The Magna Carta is our constitution.’

No it isn’t. I do wonder about the kind of history English kids are taught in school sometimes.
The U.K. has no written constitution.

prh47bridge · 27/11/2022 14:34

Henuinequest · 27/11/2022 08:15

‘The Magna Carta is our constitution.’

No it isn’t. I do wonder about the kind of history English kids are taught in school sometimes.
The U.K. has no written constitution.

We do have a written constitution, but it isn't in a single document. The clauses of the Magna Carta that haven't been repealed (all three of them!) form part of our constitution along with various Acts of Parliament. Magna Carta is not our constitution, but it is part of it.

PlasticTatMNBingo · 27/11/2022 14:40

YANBU. I can't see us getting rid of them any time soon unfortunately.

ImPickleRickSpartacus · 27/11/2022 14:53

TodayInahurry · 14/11/2022 07:30

A lot of nasty ant royalists, the Royal Family is fine, leave them away. The youth are being brainwashed at university to hate everything about the UK

And you've been brainwashed into thinking unquestioning loyalty to a family of amoral freeloaders is the only way to love your country.

DownNative · 27/11/2022 15:15

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 26/11/2022 10:05

That seems very general - you'd have to be more specific.

Oh, dear. I hadn't intended to write a dry screed of text on those points, derailing the thread and boring other posters. There was a lot of that in the wake of the death of Elizabeth II.

An historian is not the same thing as a Constitutional Historian. Nor is a historian necessarily a Constitutional expert, let alone a leading one.

I'm sure most people are aware that within every broad academic discipline there are area specialists. That hardly needs pointing out. As for recognized experts in particular fields, wherever there's an intellectual question there is contestation, usually emanating from numerous different angles. This constatation will also take into account the particular ethical, political or theoretical biases conveyed through any of that person's research. Otherwise there would be no scholarly discussion. No self-respecting academic would ever accept a particular point merely because it was expressed by the eminent Professor Snodbury of Footlights College, Oxbridge.

The term 'constitution' is ambiguous. F.W. Hegel, no less, was one of the names suggesting it was founded on a series of abstractions, and that no country had managed to produce a clear one yet. de Tocqueville, writing shortly after Hegel, did so in words to the effect that the British constitution was subject to continual shift, and didn't in reality exist (forgive the lack of actual quotes and a cogent system of citation, won't you. I don't have the time).

Crossman, around the 1960s, reckoned cabinet government had been replaced by prime ministerial government (aka presidential). And that leads to the sideways point that the system of government we have now is something very close to republican; along the model of Plato's democracy. We could ditch the Windsors tomorrow and replace them with absolutely nothing, not that this is the solution I happen to think is needed.

The thing that throws a lot of this into stark relief is the very draconian, authoritarian Blair government. They come into power in 1997, and almost immediately bring in the most radical constitutional reforms seen since the First World War. HR Act reform, FOI Act, reform, Devolution of Scotland, N.I., and Wales, and something passing for Reform of the Lords. And this throws up additional, very significant questions. There's a much more recent study by Bogdanor, claiming that through these actions the old constitution was pretty much usurped and superseded with a new one.

In sum. the meaning of 'constitution' is ambiguous. There's a lot of arguing over what it actually is, and IF it actually is. It's not me, BTW, saying the British don't possess a constitution. I'm merely pointing out that a number of people have done so. We have a set of conventions and institutions regulating the process of government: by that definition, we have a constitution. To say that, at least, it's nebulous, subject to a great deal of debate, and difficult for most people to pin down, is a reasonable suggestion.

It doesn't appear to me you've given much thought to what kind of written constitution you wish to see either or much of an idea how to get there in terms of obstacles in the road.....

With respect, I'm neither a politician nor Mystic Meg. I could link you to any decipherable constitution with a clear meaning, such as that of the Republic of Ireland, but it's not for me to write a new UK constitution. I'm suggesting that these are huge questions and that now is a good time for discussion of these issues. It's a long process, and when/if it happens will likely span many years.

The British way is evolution, not revolution.

This is, unfortunately, a lot of waffle. But before addressing any of it....which Hegel are you referring to?

Georg W.F. Hegel or, his son, Karl F.W. Hegel?

DownNative · 27/11/2022 15:42

Henuinequest · 26/11/2022 18:06

We don’t have a written constitution. End of.
and yes, we should have one. Makes the weaselling royals, and politicians for that matter, more accountable.

"End of"?!

Ridiculous assertion! If that was remotely true, how is it the UK Supreme Court can AND does refer to the Constitution itself?

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Acts respectively ARE written and, therefore, are very much part of the UK Constitution.

There are others, but this makes the point.

Lord Phillip Norton of Louth is regarded as a leading expert on the UK constitution and he stated:

"First, most of our constitution is written. It is embodied in a range of statutes, such as the Bill of Rights 1689, the Parliament Act 1911, the Human Rights Act 1998, and the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. It is thus not unwritten."

And:

"Some people say of the constitution..."we don’t have a constitution", some would say "we’ve got a written and unwritten constitution". Both are incorrect.

A constitution essentially is the combination of laws, customs, practices that determine the organs of the state, the relationship between those organs, and between those organs and the citizen. And so defined, every nation has a constitution.

The United Kingdom constitution is, in many respects, written because a large part of it is embodied in statute law. So, it’s written, it’s authoritative, but what it is not is codified. So, the principal elements, the tenets of the constitution are not drawn together in a codified constitution. So, we can’t hold up a document and say this is “the constitution.”

He's also described as “a world authority on constitutional issues”.

Pinky1011 · 20/01/2023 19:11

I'm in my 20s and I prefer the stability of a monarch over the disloyal flittering of politicians any day. At least the RF have the best interests of the country at heart, Vs "elected" politicians whom are purely self serving.

Luredbyapomegranate · 20/01/2023 19:16

I don’t care much either way, but I think the interest in the Q’s funeral and H’s book indicates they are a soap opera people enjoy. So I think they are here for now, albeit a bit more streamlined and Scandie eventually (maybe when we get to William, don’t hold your breath.)

Fairislefandango · 20/01/2023 22:29

I'm in my 20s and I prefer the stability of a monarch over the disloyal flittering of politicians any day.

But at least politicians can be voted out. Anyway, it's not as if it's either or - having a monarchy doesn't stop us from having politicians!

Thesenderofthiscard · 21/01/2023 18:09

‘I'm in my 20s and I prefer the stability of a monarch over the disloyal flittering of politicians any day. At least the RF have the best interests of the country at heart, Vs "elected" politicians whom are purely self serving.’

Insee the firm has got the interns on Mumsnet! Yeah, fuck democracy. Let’s bring by people in power based solely on their birth.

whumpthereitis · 21/01/2023 18:27

I think eventually it will end, same as the majority of monarchies in Europe.

I don’t think a monarchy is a bulwark against dictatorship, or at least I haven’t seen any evidence that it is. They don’t have power that could prevent the establishing of on.

Also, not sure how issues with elected officials are an argument in favour of unelected ones. Democracy isn’t perfect, so we just…abandon the concept and have no say whatsoever? At least in democracies the public have a say in government, and can vote ineffective ones out. You can’t vote out a shit monarch.

Florenz · 21/01/2023 18:50

You can't vote politicians out. The one that gets voted out just gets replaced by another politician. And politicians, by the very nature of the type of person that chooses to become a politican, cannot be trusted. Royalty are here for good. They have no choice in the matter. If the current monarch makes a mess of things, it's their own flesh and blood who have to deal with the consequences. Politicians just make a mess of things and then piss off abroad to lucrative speaking engagements.