To think DD’s friends parents don't need to know about DP’s past? *potential TW?*

[xidol70080]

I'm pretty sure I posted about DP before when he was first released from prison and MN was helpful then but I've since deleted that account so I can't find the thread, some of you may remember.

Some background. I was with DDs dad (now 4) for a few months at 16, I then found out I was pregnant and we stayed together. On his 17th birthday, he was drunk and stole his dads car and crashed, his best friend sadly died and he was sent to prison. I split up with him as I was very angry and upset. He was released from prison in late 2020 (when I posted on here) and I took DD to see him, he was very remorseful and told me he wanted to be in DD’s life. I moved in with him and his dad in at the start of lockdown so DD could build a relationship with her dad and so I could get some support as I don't see my own family.

Me and him got back together in March 2021, me and DD stayed living with him and his dad, he got a job and everything relationship wise has been good. Me, him and DD moved into our own house this summer (we were saving whilst living at his dads).

DD started reception in September and has had a few playdates, one of my friends has never been happy with DD having contact with DP let alone us getting back together, so we don't talk much but this evening she messaged and asked how DD is getting on at school, has she made friends etc so I told her she has. She then asked if I mentioned DP’s past to her friends’ parents, I said no and she has said if she had a child, she'd want to know so she could judge whether to allow her child around him. Some of the parents have met him and have made their judgements without knowing.

AIBU in thinking they don't need to know something that happened when DP was still legally classed as a child, he's now 21, and it's been 5 years since it happened. Or if you were her friends parents would you want to know?

Not saying I wouldnt let my dc be friends with their dd but I would want to know so it would be on my terms until I was comfortable with both the parents.

I doubt they need your friendship on your terms; it’s a play date with a school friend not a lifelong commitment. Small children are fickle, probably having different friends in Y1 to YR. You are not important enough for them to wait for your evaluation.

We will agree to differ.

while I very difficult watch, I thought the adverts which asked people if they could live with the shame of killing a child were excellent. They really rammed home that if you get behind a wheel drunk or drive recklessly the consequences are live long.

I remember when drunk driving was routine. I am pleased that it is now seen as shameful.

Block that friend. Clearly a bitch!

we can’t just shrug our shoulder and say boys will be boys. We have to be outraged. This has to be appalling - there has to be shame attached to drunk driving and joyriding. It has to stop.

Of course there has to be but if people don’t let their kids play with the DD because of this how does that make it stop? She would be the one being punished; how exactly would that help?

I'm in 2 minds.

I got arrested at 16 for stealing a couple of lipsticks from Boots and got a police caution. It scared the living daylights out of me, I was very sorry and 40 years later have never repeated it. I was a stupid kid who made a stupid mistake, and of course it shouldn't follow me around into adulthood. BUT my stupid mistake did not cause someone else to die, and as several decades have past it is apparent I've grown up. It does sound like he's learnt from it, I'd hope to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'd understand why people would be wary.

I've got splinters in my bumper from sitting on the fence. Sorry.

From a personal point of view, I see the awful fact that his friend died, almost as irrelevant, or “luck of the draw”. The fact is that drink (and drug) driving is still common place, and if we all ostracised anyone who had ever got behind the wheel of a car, while over the drink driving limit, we would be living much more isolated lives. That’s not to belittle the crime at all. And the victim impact is huge. But that doesn’t actually change what he did.
Again, a personal opinion, is that EVERY drink/ drug drive offence should be treated as if someone lost their life. I’d teach about drink driving in GCSE physics lessons - pointing out how long it takes to stop a car at various speeds, and how drink/ drugs affect the way you drive, and reaction times etc.
I’m really glad for the whole family, that he HAS learned from his actions, and has changed as a result, and I really don’t see the need to continue to beat him up over it, it sounds as if he’s done enough of that himself. He will live with the guilt for the rest of his life. He will live with the weight of his friends family behind him. He doesn’t need the judgement of strangers and nor should his DC.

I agree with much of what you say but reparation and indeed prevention don't play a large part in our current criminal justice system. About 4 or 5 pages back several PP posted about different reparative acts this young man could do, to at least in part to redeem himself - the OP didn't respond and the ideas didn't get any purchase from other posters either

A while ago I was involved with a YOT team doing work with young joyriders before they killed themselves or other people - the project was shelved not because it was ineffective but because it was costly and seen to be in some ways rewarding antisocial behaviour.

These are the political choices we've made as a society and these are the costs

I must say I'm irked by the 'he was only a child' refrain - a child to me is under 12
and it's usual to call 17 yr olds 'young people' or even 'young adults'. Obviously, adulthood is not an event but a process taking place over 10 years or so with different social, psychological and legal milestones along the way.

WRT to legal milestones - it's good to remember that10 is the age of criminal responsibility in the UK. So being an actual child doesn't remove being responsible for immature, impulsive criminal acts etc
The CJS acknowledges this by treating young people between 10 and 18 differently - doing preventative work via YOT, sentencing guidelines, housing them separately from adult criminals in YOI, and writing off some convictions committed before the age of 18 etc

So 17yr olds aren't children in the eyes of the law - they're 'not adults' but they're 'youths'

And mitigating factors of which there maybe many don't generally detract from knowing the difference between right and wrong so responsibility remains

To my mind a lot of this discussion has been more about social stigma rather that the safety of 4 yr olds on playdates - parents don't want their children mixing with 'criminal' families/individuals and being tainted by the social contagion of so doing. And that's a real risk for parents to negotiate.

I'll get off my soap-box now

I’d teach about drink driving in GCSE physics lessons - pointing out how long it takes to stop a car at various speeds, and how drink/ drugs affect the way you drive, and reaction times etc.

Interestingly, when I was a SAHM and there were only 4 tv channels, I watched a school maths series that related maths to everyday life. There was one that showed how much your reactions slowed with different levels of drink and was definitely related to driving. I’ve no idea if it would have affected drink driving levels among the generation that watched it.

I’d also point out that teenage drivers are involved in a disproportionate number of road accidents. This is even the case where no drink is involved and the car is being driven legally. One contributory factor is having other young people in the car.

About 4 or 5 pages back several PP posted about different reparative acts this young man could do, to at least in part to redeem himself - the OP didn't respond and the ideas didn't get any purchase from other posters either.

While these are valuable schemes, they are fairly niche, depend on funding, and probably couldn’t be done by someone with a full time job . It also takes someone with a certain kind of outgoing personality to cart it off.

I agree with you - uncommon and costly ATM but that's a choice that's been made by us/ our society

The Maori tribal/family group conference type projects are sometimes better suited to people with certain skills/personalities

Nonetheless reparative interventions have been proven to be helpful to both offenders and the rest of society

My point really was that it wasn't even acknowledged as a possibility

Wow, just a couple of years for drink driving and killing a kid? I feel for the poor family who lost their child.

I believe firmly in the rehabilitation of offenders and it sounds as though OPs DP has engaged with this. Other people have other ideas, but as long as our society is like this we should respect it. Personally? I believe that if you get in a car when drunk you should have some rather firm conditions attached to future driving licences, but that is neither here nor there.

There is a lot of feeling on the thread (and outside i would guess) that causing death when drunk driving should have harsher sentencing than often happens. I agree but OP, her DP and anyone else can't address this under current laws. There are mitigating circs in sentencing that it would be hugely unfair to ignore for some crimes and not others. (admitting guilt etc)

This feeling colours people's attitudes, including OPs so-called friend. I would assume in OPs shoes that "friend" will let people know one way or another so OP and her DP need to agree on a strategy. Either wait to see if people ask - then answer honestly, or be more upfront. I prefer the former but it depends how fast and hard any reaction affects DD. But in general for non reportable actions (eg being put on the sex offenders register) i don't see that a conviction and prison sentence is anyone else's business.

I feel for the poor family who lost their child.

exactly.

can you imagine being that poor dead friend's parents and getting an INKLING of some of the sentiment posted here? OP's DP was a "child", "made a mistake", has learned from it.. etc

all the while your son is cold and dead in the ground due to HIS actions less than 5 years ago.

i'm disgusted at the minimising going on here.

his character is flawed, OP. a short jail sentance doesn't fix that.

only time and true remorse (which you don't get as you walk out of a jail cell automatically) could truly "rehabilitate" the OP's "DP".

Be disgusted. Redemption is part of a civilised society.

“True remorse”
What does that look like to you?
How do you know the extent of his remorse?
Would be rather he killed himself as a sacrifice to society?
Would you rather he locked himself away for the rest of his life or until you deem him suitably remorseful?

How is getting a job and being a good father not a sufficient level of redemption?

It’s like the Middle Ages on here. Bring back hanging! Bring back the stocks!

Don't be so ridiculous!

Just because you don't have forgiveness, don't start accusing everyone of wrongdoing.

99% sure most of us are drunk drivers.......... what a ludicrous statement.

He will live with the guilt for the rest of his life. He will live with the weight of his friends family behind him. He doesn’t need the judgement of strangers and nor should his DC.

Exactly. He was judged in court and served the sentence that society required of him. If he had come out of prison unapologetic and continuing that way of life, then of course everyone should be wary of him. But from what we've been told, he's rehabilitated, behavinng lawfully, working and being a good dad. Presumably that's what we all want from convicted criminals. For them to leave prison and be changed people.

He's not living scot-free. His ongoing punishment is going on within him. He will never forget that he killed his best friend.

I think you are both missing the point. I don't care about his remorse, or guilt, or his feelings on others judging him. I'm not even particularly judging him....but the questions asked included people sending their kids to his house to play.

I can judge all the fuck I like when it comes to who is looking after my child. I can decide, for any reason I choose, that someone is not good enough to do that. I can certainly decide that I don't want a young drunk driving killer to be a babysitter.

What's more, all of you talking about unfair judgements would think the exact same thing if it was your actual child and not a hypothetical argument on the internet!

I'm not attacking your characte in any way, I understand your perspective and I also know people who have lost their lives due to joyriding and driving under the influence. I'm just asking what you would suggest people do differently? There's a lot of people on the thread saying we need to be more outraged but noone giving a clear idea of suggestion of what can this guy actually do to prove that he's living his life differently. To me the fact he pled guilty from the start and seemed to be genuinely remorseful and no longer drives or drinks are all clear signs that he's learnt from what happened. It's not that it isn't a big deal it's just me questioning how long do you hold something over someone when they're trying to move forward and do better?

Forgiveness doesn't seem to feature much here

In the OPs posts on this thread and her previous one in 2020 she has repeatedly stressed how remorseful he is - the judge took his remorse into account as a mitigating factor in sentencing

Unintentionally killing your best friend is surely emotionally a potentional life sentence

Perhaps, the best friends family and friends have been able to forgive him - I hope so

I love that you use your physics lesson to teach about drink driving. Brilliant and really inspired. I hope my kids will have lots of teachers like you!!

Obviously every family is different and circumstances are different, but the last funeral I went to both families were in attendance with each other because they knew their kids were friends who cared about each other and would never have intentionally set out to hurt one another. They were stupid and reckless and in that instance both lost their lives as a result.

I strongly agree with pps who have argued that we need to be educating young people around the risks and dangers so they can start to process the consequences to their actions in advance. And funding is the huge issue there. Brexit has most charities in my area on their knees and this is the consequences of that- there's really good work there to be doing that we can't get at because we need the money to do it and that affects entire communities. Young people need a redirect, if they grow up disillusioned and seeing all their mates joyriding for the crack regularly then they're not going to stop and think about actually I could seriously harm someone- they're thinking it'll never happen to me. So they need a place and a way to learn and process that.

I don’t think the poster does, it reads as though she would like it to be taught in physics lessons doesn’t it?

My kids learnt about the effect of alcohol and other drugs on the body and how it can affect driving amongst other things in Biology lessons. Also in personal development classes as part of staying safe and being responsible.

I think it’s a dreadful crime to commit, up there with the worst of them and there should be a stigma.

Of course you can judge all you like and have preferences on who looks after or spends time in the presence of your child.

The question though is does the op have a moral obligation to disclose this information to you and my opinion is no she doesn't. We all make judgment calls on what info to disclose to others and most of us wouldn't dream of listing every possible lapse of judgment we have shown or every bad decision we have made. I had an abortion many years ago and for many years I believed this made me unfit to not just be a mother but look after a child. I think most of you would agree it doesn't but that's what I thought back then. It is now that I see that it has nothing to do with how much I value the life of a living person and because of my constant underlying feeling of guilt to actually try harder to be careful and responsible.

This is slightly similar in that it involves death and therefore brings out a lot of emotional responses and knee jerk reactions. Someone died. We want something so huge to have a big impact. We identify with the family of the victim and think there need to be severe consequences for causing so.much pain but you have to ask yourself honestly what risk does op's partner pose to other children? Especially considering he doesn't drink anymore and doesn't drive?

The fact that op has decided to arrange the play date means that she personally believes she can ensure the safety of your child. Just as I decide every time we have a child over that I can provide a safe environment. I don't ask other parents. I just make this decision myself. As you all do. Why should this little girl be made to suffer when op clearly believes that her partner is no danger, that this information has no bearing on how safe another child is around him? Do I have to tell every parent whose child I ever look after that I've once had an abortion just because someone because of their own views and beliefs (mistakenly) thinks that it makes a difference to how responsible I am?

Guilt is a strong motivator. Being responsible for someone or something not being alive has a massive impact on how you view death. You start to understand that you can be the cause of something so big. That something you do can deprive someone / something of their life. Who knows. Maybe because of his experiences and because of what he has done op's partner is actually the safest person to be around.

Oh I missed that little "would". Anyway, it's a great idea and I agree that how alcohol affects your driving should he rammed in at every opportunity that school (and parents) get.

I agree that there should be a stigma when people do drink and drive. Social rules can be stronger motivators than legal ones.

I totally disagree that someone who has committed this particular crime (with tragic consequences), has paid for it and is now trying to build his life again should be punished again and again..I totally disagree that his daughter should be punished for his crime.