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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Disability/abortion debate in UK

237 replies

Bretontops · 07/11/2022 21:53

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-11-04/teenager-with-downs-syndrome-meets-rishi-sunak-over-abortion-laws

This cause went to the High Court and was rejected, so why is Rishi meeting with her?

I’m getting irritated with this ‘pressure group’ who basically want to ensure more babies with disabilities are born by stealth, by taking choice away from women. I’m also dubious about how many of these disabled people are truly advocating for themselves and how many have been ‘encouraged’ to do so by pro life parents.

In some cases the parents had the screening but slipped through the net - so they didn’t make an active decision to parent a disabled child, but now expect others to do so, to affirm their circumstances presumably?

Prepared to be told AIBU, but I feel we should be able to discuss it as it’s potentially our rights they want to restrict.

OP posts:
LaBellina · 07/11/2022 23:04

stuntbubbles · 07/11/2022 23:02

There is no debate. Some things, like my bodily autonomy, are not up for debate. Pretending there’s a debate to be had suggests that, well, that there’s a debate to be had – about my body. And that is, frankly, weird.

this

Raddix · 07/11/2022 23:06

YANBU. The people with Downs (and their parents) who are campaigning for this are by definition only mildly affected. Because those who are severely affected by Downs aren’t campaigning - they are non verbal, housebound, unable to walk or toilet train, and the parents are exhausted from giving 24/7 care.

I don’t find it reasonable for those who are only mildly affected to tell others they must roll the dice and hope their disabled child will also only be mildly affected. I can tell you for sure that the parents of children with severe Downs aren’t going around suggesting it as an option to anyone else.

goldsparklyChocolate · 07/11/2022 23:06

stuntbubbles · 07/11/2022 23:02

There is no debate. Some things, like my bodily autonomy, are not up for debate. Pretending there’s a debate to be had suggests that, well, that there’s a debate to be had – about my body. And that is, frankly, weird.

Do you know by chance where I could find information about autonomy and abortion?

Is there ever a time when a woman can have that decision taken away (to abort or not abort) - if so does a capacity assessment have to take place with her knowledge ? How is capacity assessed ? It’s something I’ve been looking into and can’t find much about it you hear so much about autonomy but how is that right protected ?

SarahAndQuack · 07/11/2022 23:07

LBB2020 · 07/11/2022 23:00

No @SarahAndQuack that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying the limit should be the same regardless of reason for wanting an abortion (so really the 24 week limit should be removed and it should be until term/birth for any reason)

I apologise! Thanks for explaining.

123ROLO · 07/11/2022 23:11

To me, it isn't about whether one child Is any less valuable than another, its about whether the mother is able or willing to care for a disabled child.

On the less extreme end of the spectrum, you could have a disabled child who is able to have and maintain a good quality of life and independent living just with a little support.

On the extreme end, you could have a disabled child that needs round the clock care, requires assistance with all aspects of living, has no likelihood of independent living, the mother's life will turn into one of a carer, or laden with guilt if she can't provide that care and chooses a care home, and she will grow old with the worry of who will care for them when gone.

Down syndrome often is only represented by the individuals who are independent, articulate and happy, while i imagine the majority are like this, I worked with young adults who have down syndrome who were non verbal, incontinent and had to be supervised at all times due to choking risk or aggressive behaviour, their life is full of value, but mostly, it was the mother who provided most of that care.

No mother should be forced into this role. I've worked in disability care in the past, I helped people live as independently as possible, I loved the people I worked with and they bought value to mine and others lives, just like anyone else. But if I was a mother, I cant comprehend how challenging that must be. Perhaps if it is sprung upon me then I'd find the means, but I wouldn't willingly walk into a role of both mother and carer.

To me, prolifers in this context are just saying to women "why are you bothered about potentially having to give up your career, lose your friendships, free time and hobbies? you should be happy to give up the rest of your life to be a carer that's your duty as a woman!"

I am genuinely happy there are women out there willing and able to do this, and I don't doubt for one second that those parents aren't happy with their child, and have zero regrets about them being born. That's great, there are some seriously strong mothers out there, but I don't think I could do it, and it definitely shouldn't be forced upon mother's.

CherryBlossomWinter · 07/11/2022 23:11

Raddix · 07/11/2022 23:06

YANBU. The people with Downs (and their parents) who are campaigning for this are by definition only mildly affected. Because those who are severely affected by Downs aren’t campaigning - they are non verbal, housebound, unable to walk or toilet train, and the parents are exhausted from giving 24/7 care.

I don’t find it reasonable for those who are only mildly affected to tell others they must roll the dice and hope their disabled child will also only be mildly affected. I can tell you for sure that the parents of children with severe Downs aren’t going around suggesting it as an option to anyone else.

I agree with this, and am quite saddened by what I see as a ‘sanitisation of disability’ - only ‘acceptable’ milder forms are discussed, debated, centred or shown in our media - meaning those with less socially ‘acceptable’ disabilities are further isolated and hidden. And the centering is around acceptance only - and in this case an opportunity lost to tackle Rishi Sunak about quality of care and support for parents/those with disabilities. The debate is a massive deflection.

EL8888 · 07/11/2022 23:19

Bretontops · 07/11/2022 22:44

But those parents are the ones seeking to change my rights, so why shouldn’t I be able to air my views?

Well, exactly. It’s a 2 way street surely?

Sparklesocks · 07/11/2022 23:23

Endwalker · 07/11/2022 22:58

The vast majority of abortions in the UK take place before 10wks (over 80%) with most of rhe rest taking place before 13wks, only 1% take place between 20-24wks. The statistics suggest that women who simply don't want to be pregnant are taking care of it as early as possible.

The number of abortions that take place post-24wks is tiny, around 248 per year. Provision for post-24wks is essential as it gives women time to have further tests, to seek a second opinion, to talk it out with family/friends, to consider the situation, to see if the prognosis improves (e.g., where there is a development issue), and so on. The 248 women each year who make this decision should not be rushed into it, they should be allowed the time they need.

The parents involved in these campaigns had a choice, protected by law, about whether or not to continue their pregnancy. Its sickening that they're now seeking to remove that choice from other women.

You don't have to like someone's reasoning for having an abortion. Their reasons are literally none of your business anyway but you are under no obligation to agree with those reasons, however just because you don't like it doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Thank you for this.

Tommyrot · 07/11/2022 23:32

It's really about treating disabled and non-disabled people the same. If it is okay to have a late abortion if a child is disabled why is it not okay to have a late abortion if the child is not disabled? By treating them differently you are saying disabled people are worth less. The fact that some people don't want to look after a disabled child is not an argument for treating them differently. Not everyone wants to look after children who aren't disabled either but they aren't allowed to abort them late in pregnancy.

Mandatorymongoose · 07/11/2022 23:33

@gogoldsparklyChocolate there have been a few cases where the court of protection have made decisions about if an abortion is to be performed or not (taking the choice away from the woman). They have generally been related to women with learning disabilities or severe mental health issues.

It would be under the mental capacity act usually that that choice was made. Although the mental health act may have some provision too.

The test for capacity is always the same, no matter the choice. You need to establish the person has an impairment of mind, then look at if they understand the specific decision to be made, if they can weigh up the pros and cons, if they can recall the information for long enough to make the decision and if they can communicate their choice. If they can't do ar least one of those then they lack capacity and the decision should be made in their best interests.

Best interests should consider what the person would want if they did have capacity. If there is any hope of the person regaining capacity and the decision can be put off until then then you should do that.

Few stories with different outcomes:

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/11/woman-severe-learning-disabilities-abortion-judge-rules

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/24/catholic-church-hits-out-at-court-over-abortion-ruling

www.theguardian.com/society/2001/oct/18/mentalhealth

Blocked · 07/11/2022 23:35

Luredbyapomegranate · 07/11/2022 22:47

I voted YANBU because I agree abortion rights are a concern. However, I think this is just a nice photo op for Caring Rushi. I can't imagine this is or ever will be of any interest to him.

Nail on head there. Sunak is a money man, we effectively have a team of two chancellors now instead of a PM and a chancellor. Sunak is not interested in challenging the status quo on anything unless it impacts the countries finances in some way.

LangClegsInSpace · 07/11/2022 23:38

This is the front line of the anti-abortion movement in the UK today.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4539125-more-institutional-capture-pro-lifers-this-time

The Crowter case was permitted to appeal on one ground - that having a different time limit for disability constitutes indirect discrimination against disabled people by encouraging the view that their lives are worth less.

The decision in that case is due any time now. Long thread here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4289660-Late-term-abortion-high-court

If that is now the argument then the most obvious targets are the benefit system and social care, which discriminate against and dehumanise disabled people day after day. But these people do not say a word about those things, It's only ever about abortion.

Also, I most definitely will not be listening to lectures about abortion law stigmatising disabled people from an org that still calls itself 'Mencap' Hmm

https://www.mencap.org.uk/crowter-case-statement

Disability/abortion debate in UK
Amortentia · 07/11/2022 23:41

goldsparklyChocolate · 07/11/2022 21:59

Is it true that conditions such as cleft lip is considered a ‘severe disability’ when it comes to abortion ? Is there a list of conditions classified severe ?

Actually, a cleft lip can indicate a very serious genetic condition. It winds me no end when this is used as an example. It’s only very recently that this condition can be detected before birth and the outcome can be extremely bleak for the child and family.

Raddix · 07/11/2022 23:41

The fact that some people don't want to look after a disabled child is not an argument for treating them differently
Of course it is. Looking after a severely disabled child is a huge burden. Some parents commit suicide because it’s such a huge burden. People need to be able to choose not to take that on.

minipie · 07/11/2022 23:42

KitchiHuritAngeni · 07/11/2022 22:00

If the law has to be changed against any perceived discrimination then it should be to extend the current limit for all pregnancies not to reduce the limit for anyone.

They aren't asking for that though, almost like theres an agenda against women's reproductive rights.

This is exactly what I came on to say.

Yes arguably the current law is ableist.

This could be solved by extending the right to abortion when there is no disability, so that the deadline is the same as when there is.

Funnily enough they’re not arguing for that. Shows their true agenda is anti abortion, not anti ableism. I wonder who is backing them…

moonypadfootprongs · 07/11/2022 23:57

ClocksGoingBackwards · 07/11/2022 22:36

I’m all for women’s rights to reproductive autonomy, but you have to have a heart of stone and be very closed minded if you can’t at least see where this lady is coming from. She’s not trying to take rights away, she’s making the point that her life is still well worth living even if she has a disability.

Exactly. If your unborn baby is diagnosed with Down Syndrome it is assumed immediately that you will choose to abort. Indeed a friend who chose to keep her child was heavily pressured by medics around her who told her effectively what a burden her child would be.
Her child is thriving. They are a much loved and cherished member of their family. She is healthy and is most definitely not a burden. Based on how she is doing now she may well be able to live independently and work. Her life is valid.

CrazyDogLady2022 · 08/11/2022 00:10

The issue is, the abortion limit should be the same regardless of disability. So many people are already uncomfortable with the limit of 24 weeks (thinking it’s too high) I can only imagine the uproar if this campaign was to increase/extend the abortion limit… so I suspect the campaigners, rather than wishing to restrict anyone’s right to an abortion, simply chose the option which has the most chance of success.

I have a child with Downs Syndrome. I hate that the law says later terminations are allowed for babies like him. I also find the idea of late term abortions utterly abhorrent, as I’m sure most people do. But I also believe that women must have bodily autonomy at all times and so really abortions should be legal for anyone who wants one, at any gestation, whatever their reason. I also think that will never happen…

SarahAndQuack · 08/11/2022 00:29

I don't agree there should be a limit on abortion, so I agree it is wrong that there's a limit that differs depending on diagnoses of conditions in utero.

But, if we accept - or feel we can't challenge - the idea that abortion should be limited, I think we have to acknowledge that not every pregnancy is the same. It's one thing to say to a parent who happens to want a girl that, at 33 weeks, they really shouldn't have an option to terminate because they're carrying a boy. It is quite another thing to say to a parent who has a child who will die in agony during labour, that they cannot terminate the pregnancy.

minipie · 08/11/2022 00:32

so I suspect the campaigners, rather than wishing to restrict anyone’s right to an abortion, simply chose the option which has the most chance of success

But what they are campaigning for IS a restriction on rights to abortion. No way around that. And they realise this full well.

Maybe it’s not their main aim (though I am still willing to bet that they have some sort of funding/backing from pro life groups). But they’ve decided that making things equal for disabled foetuses is more important than preserving current abortion rights.

I do actually agree that the current law is ableist. But I can’t get on board with this as a solution. Extend the deadline for all.

LangClegsInSpace · 08/11/2022 00:42

Maybe it’s not their main aim (though I am still willing to bet that they have some sort of funding/backing from pro life groups).

https://makingrightsmakesense.wordpress.com/2022/01/21/a-cunning-fox/

minipie · 08/11/2022 00:46

Thank you LangCleg. Quite.

Untitledsquatboulder · 08/11/2022 00:49

@stuntbubbles Im pretty sick of extremists of all persuasions screaming "no debate".

We do not live in a society with full bodily autonomy. We cannot sell our organs. We do not practice euthanasia. We place restrictions on termination and surrogacy. You may believe that such restrictions are unnecessary, or you might favour some but not others, but who the hell are you to say they are not open for discussion?

It is possible to tell very early in pregnancy whether a fetus is male or female. If in a few years some company wants to offer an 8 week blood test and termination if you don't like the result combi deal I will oppose it. I won't pretend though that there is no debate to be had.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 08/11/2022 01:15

ClocksGoingBackwards · 07/11/2022 22:36

I’m all for women’s rights to reproductive autonomy, but you have to have a heart of stone and be very closed minded if you can’t at least see where this lady is coming from. She’s not trying to take rights away, she’s making the point that her life is still well worth living even if she has a disability.

And no one said it is t.

Taking rights away is exactly what she wants to do.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 08/11/2022 01:16

goldsparklyChocolate · 07/11/2022 22:36

I am pro choice but there has to be a line drawn I can’t see how anyone would abort just because they don’t want a baby of a specific gender. Medical
conditions affecting one gender only aside I just can’t see how it is right to abort based on gender preference

But why do you get to be the judge of what’s right and wrong? Another person will strongly argue that medical reasons are immoral too.

So it’s best just to be black and white: “Yes you can about. For any reason”

The end

Untitledsquatboulder · 08/11/2022 01:21

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet and how well has that worked out in societies where its allowed?

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