Disability/abortion debate in UK

[Bretontops]

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-11-04/teenager-with-downs-syndrome-meets-rishi-sunak-over-abortion-laws

This cause went to the High Court and was rejected, so why is Rishi meeting with her?

I’m getting irritated with this ‘pressure group’ who basically want to ensure more babies with disabilities are born by stealth, by taking choice away from women. I’m also dubious about how many of these disabled people are truly advocating for themselves and how many have been ‘encouraged’ to do so by pro life parents.

In some cases the parents had the screening but slipped through the net - so they didn’t make an active decision to parent a disabled child, but now expect others to do so, to affirm their circumstances presumably?

Prepared to be told AIBU, but I feel we should be able to discuss it as it’s potentially our rights they want to restrict.

But those parents are the ones seeking to change my rights, so why shouldn’t I be able to air my views?

I have a child with Down syndrome so this is a difficult one for me to comment on. Yes, a woman should 100% be able to abort for any reason (her body her choice) but that isn’t what this is about. It’s not about taking away a woman’s choice or rights it’s about levelling the playing field. Abortions up to 24 weeks or to full term for all, rather than singling out certain disabilities and saying those foetuses/babies can be aborted right up to birth

I could not agree with this more, and I speak from personal experience having terminated a pregnancy due to genetic abnormality.

There is no “this is ok, this is not”. The woman has the right to choose.

I personally do not think it's okay to use abortion as a form of "regular" contraception

I just don’t get this. Either a foetus is a full human and so has rights or it is not and therefore does not. I can understand those on both extremes of the argument about abortion, but I don’t understand the “women have rights over their own bodies, but only if I think their reasons are good enough” argument. At some stage you surely have to decide - does a foetus have personhood or not?

I voted YANBU because I agree abortion rights are a concern. However, I think this is just a nice photo op for Caring Rushi. I can't imagine this is or ever will be of any interest to him.

I have a child with a severe disability, who is the light of my life. However I strongly feel that the debate we should be having is not so much abortion but around the quality of care and support for kids and their parents - it’s still absolutely terrible! After diagnosis I have had almost no support at all.

Getting the right school is like having to go into battle, and we still hear about abuse in residential homes, poor management, lack of continuing care. We as a society should hang our heads about this. People with learning disabilities have a much lower life expectancy (mostly preventable), and this is 2022! So I am very wary of this debate, it detracts from the real issues, that we do not give kids with disabilities anything like the best start in life. And unfortunately, that does mean it’s all on parents to sink or swim. Let’s pull together for that.

As an older mother I was in a high risk category. We made the decision that if we tested positive for some disability, we would terminate.
When I told my mother, I expected her to be annoyed (I have a bother with learning difficulties) she told me that she wouldn't blame me as she wouldn't wish her life on anyone.

One woman having an abortion isn't doing anyone else a disservice though.

If she made the same choice as someone else but for different reason then that's fine and noone else's business.

Not all abortions come with a traumatic backstory or heartbreaking reason.

"I don't wish to continue this pregnancy" is all that's needed. You may not like it but we need to trust women to choose for ourselves.

They are absolutely trying to take rights away.

She might be able to life a normal life; many with DS cannot.

Well it's interesting isn't it? If we are OK w termination for whatever reason, what might we be able to screen for and select for in future? Sexual orientation? Good looks? Skin tone?

Are you saying that if a woman is pregnant with a baby she knows will not survive birth, or will not survive the early hours of life, she should be forced to put that baby through the stress and pain of labour? If that baby has a condition that means labour will be agonisingly painful?

I think that is utterly inhumane. I should be clear I'm not thinking of Down's. I am thinking of conditions where they process of labour - which is stressful and dangerous for any baby - would be actively agonising. It's my personal belief it is wrong to make that the only possibility.

Amen.

Not wildly interesting, no. Just strawman nonsense designed by forced birthers to create debate where there is none.

I just feel as if any of my daughters ever came to me saying they were pregnant and aborting I’d say ‘right ok let sort it out I’ll support you however you need ‘ no questions asked . I can only think of one scenario where I wouldn’t and that would be if they said ‘oh I don’t want this baby as I don’t want a boy/girl - if it was the other gender I’d keep it’ I would absolutely tell them precisely how wrong that it

Millie and her family need to stay in their lane. Another woman’s right to abortion has absolutely nothing to do with them. How shameless and all about ‘me, me, me’ are you when you want to abolish a basic human right because ‘it hurts your dignity’.
🤮

The only dignity that’s being hurt is that of those who’s right to body autonomy you’re trying to end.

I have a number of disabilities. The main ones are cerebral palsy, autism and a genetic condition. If there was screening I think it should be available even if it means I might not have been born due to screening and ivf or abortion at any time during the pregnancy.

These are such variable conditions that I have no right to expect any woman to carry a child knowing that they may have a severely disabled child and then adult needing care.

As with all MH services there should be therapy available if there are disabled people who feel that they are less valuable due to being disabled and unfortunately often there isn’t . I have certainly had suicidal thoughts/wished my parents had a “normal” child/adult. They would not have had to fight for me or see me through medical treatment and not be worried about my future. I could be more support as they age. Testing if available could have saved them that and I have relatively mild disability.

She very literally is “trying to take rights away”! She’s campaigning for abortion restrictions!

The vast majority of abortions in the UK take place before 10wks (over 80%) with most of rhe rest taking place before 13wks, only 1% take place between 20-24wks. The statistics suggest that women who simply don't want to be pregnant are taking care of it as early as possible.

The number of abortions that take place post-24wks is tiny, around 248 per year. Provision for post-24wks is essential as it gives women time to have further tests, to seek a second opinion, to talk it out with family/friends, to consider the situation, to see if the prognosis improves (e.g., where there is a development issue), and so on. The 248 women each year who make this decision should not be rushed into it, they should be allowed the time they need.

The parents involved in these campaigns had a choice, protected by law, about whether or not to continue their pregnancy. Its sickening that they're now seeking to remove that choice from other women.

You don't have to like someone's reasoning for having an abortion. Their reasons are literally none of your business anyway but you are under no obligation to agree with those reasons, however just because you don't like it doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to do it.

That's fine, tell your daughter that if it were to happen.

You don't get to tell other women that they are doing a disservice to other due to their own choices about their own lives.

The alternative would be to force someone who doesn't want a particular sex of child, and who feels so strongly about that that they wanted an abortion, to give birth to a child they don't want.

No @SarahAndQuack that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying the limit should be the same regardless of reason for wanting an abortion (so really the 24 week limit should be removed and it should be until term/birth for any reason)

Or valid questions being ignored because it makes people scared that if they engage in a debate they will lose their rights so they’d rather just avoid the discussion totally. It doesn’t make you less pro choice to consider these things

100%

There is no debate. Some things, like my bodily autonomy, are not up for debate. Pretending there’s a debate to be had suggests that, well, that there’s a debate to be had – about my body. And that is, frankly, weird.

@stuntbubbles how so? If termination on the basis of sex is OK, then why not under other characteristics? What makes them so special?

Personally I'm fine with the laws around termination where they are, I neither wish to see them expanded or retracted.

@Untitledsquatboulder See @Endwalker’s very good post a little above – the vast vast majority of women abort far earlier than anything you could screen for.