Late term abortion, high court

[Anycrispsleft]

I saw this on the BBC this morning - it's High Court review of the rules on late term abortions. The campaigners are seeking to remove the exception to the ban on post 24 week abortion that allows it in the case of "non-lethal" disabilities. The woman who is asking for the review wants the law to be changed on the grounds that it's discrimination against disabled people.

Apologies if this case has been covered before, I'm a newcomer to FWR having been radicalised by you people on Twitter. I just wanted to express this thought that occurred to me: the trans debate has shown me that whatever good-thinking progressives think, rights are sometimes like pie, in that giving one person more rights can mean less rights for someone else. And this is also like that, isn't it? There's a balancing of the rights of the foetus (not that a foetus has legal rights, at least not yet) and the rights of the mother. Until now I used to sort of shy away from this bit of the ethics of abortion. I am very strongly pro choice, but I always wanted to be able to justify that stance in a sort of objective way, considering the cases of the foetus and the mother as though I had no skin in the game. And I realised I can't actually do that, because I do have skin in the game, because I am a woman, I have two girls, and I want all of us to have control over our own bodies. It's not that I think I am objectively right. I want to win this. I don't care about the rights and wrongs from an academic point of view. I don't want my children to have to carry a child they don't want to term. Full stop. I'm sure others would be able to put this in a much more eloquent way but I feel like I've reached a new point in my feminism and I wanted to share it. I'm not neutral. I'm team woman.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

#TeamWoman

Having seen babies in the NICU born at 24 weeks and thriving,
I’m pro-choice but I think there should be a limit unless medically recommended.

@FelicityPike

Having seen babies in the NICU born at 24 weeks and thriving, I’m pro-choice but I think there should be a limit unless medically recommended.

do you think a woman suddenly thinks (at 24 weeks) ah I dont fancy being pregnant now, think i'll just get rid of it!

You are not pro-choice, you are partially pro choice, but not enough

As early as possible, as late as necessary. #TeamWoman

If you want to set a limit on late abortion then first you have to remove all impediments to obtaining an early one. And I don't see that happening.

The reason I'm against time limits on abortion, is giving mothers (and fathers!) time to make an informed decision. It should be something thought about not decided on within a couple of days due to a time limit approaching.

Definitely Early as Possible, late as necessary.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

There were some threads on this topic last year and I am firmly team woman. I think this would be such a backwards steps for women’s rights if they are successful in their campaign. If it was truly for equality and pro choice then they would be looking to raise the 24 week limit to full term for any pregnancy. But it’s a disguise for pro life.

In fact I think the whole law is outdated that a doctor can only authorise abortions on certain grounds. It should be the woman’s decision alone at any stage and she shouldn’t have to justify her reason to end her pregnancy to anyone.

Heidi’s Twitter account are tweeting live from court. If anyone is interested in following closely.

mobile.twitter.com/HeidiCrowter95

@CinderFuckingRe11a

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

#TeamWoman

This

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

The reason I'm against time limits on abortion, is giving mothers (and fathers!) time to make an informed decision. It should be something thought about not decided on within a couple of days due to a time limit approaching.

Definitely Early as Possible, late as necessary.

Yes I think it could actually have the opposite effect and increase abortions instead.

@FelicityPike

Having seen babies in the NICU born at 24 weeks and thriving, I’m pro-choice but I think there should be a limit unless medically recommended.

In that case you’re not really pro choice. And that’s OK.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

Looking at what’s coming out from the Twitter account already I don’t think they have a strong argument, but I don’t know the law. Even if judge rules in their favour on grounds of equality, the government can/should amend the law to be up to full term for all pregnancies to make it equal.

There have been investigations that uncovered late abortions carried out for Cleft Palate
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1126893/
I believe totally in a woman's right to autonomy over her body but I am uncomfortable with a really late term abortion being carried out for an easily fixable disability
@IcedSpice, what do you think about an otherwise healthy baby being aborted for a cleft palate. They do not show up on early scans

I am absolutely team woman. I have friends with children with Downs and I do understand where the campaign is coming from. But there is no way I could support a law which forces women to carry a child she doesn't want. If they want equality the answer is no time limits for all abortions.

I would happily get behind a campaign for better ante natal information and support so women can make genuinely informed choices. I would wholeheartedly support a campaign for better support for families with disabled children so that women can choose to continue a pregnancy knowing that they will have all the support they need.

On abortion I am firmly in favour of "as early as possible as late as necessary".

@FelicityPike

Having seen babies in the NICU born at 24 weeks and thriving, I’m pro-choice but I think there should be a limit unless medically recommended.

There is an assumption that premature infants leaving NICU do so because they are fit and healthy for release home.

Once a baby reaches their EDD they can be moved to PICU. I wonder what the stats are for 24 week babies moving onto PICU at their due date in comparison with the stats showing 24 week babies "leaving NICU".

Lung development is incredibly late into the pregnancy and whilst a 24 week baby may be breathing well, it is usually with lots of support, and there is a likelihood unfortunately of the baby reaching 2/3 year old and their lungs simply not being developed enough to mean they are fully well as children.

I am not saying for one second that babies born at 24 weeks should not be supported in any way possible to have a healthy life - simply that we cannot use the notion that 24 week babies can do well as a reason to move the abortion limit earlier.

In that case you’re not really pro choice. And that’s OK.

Eh, not everyone believes in abortion right til birth. Doesn't mean they're not pro choice imo.

Some people are pro choice til birth for any reason... others only for severe disabilities/illnesses- you could argue the latter aren't pro choice (enough)

@Twickytwo

There have been investigations that uncovered late abortions carried out for Cleft Palate www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1126893/ I believe totally in a woman's right to autonomy over her body but I am uncomfortable with a really late term abortion being carried out for an easily fixable disability *@IcedSpice*, what do you think about an otherwise healthy baby being aborted for a cleft palate. They do not show up on early scans

If the woman has all the facts, and still chooses to terminate, then I am right behind her supporting her

I can see why the campaigners feel that aborting downs syndrome babies is discriminatory, given they are living happy and fulfilled lives.
But I don't think society should ever force a mother to be pregnant with a child she doesn't want.
Firstly because I think all pregnancy runs risks if severe injury or death to the mother, its up to her if she doesn't want to take those risks
Secondly because I just don't believe any woman is capricious enough to get to 30 weeks pregnant then just decide she can't be arsed any more. I trust women who want late abortions that they have strong reasons for that.
Thirdly because I believe it would be extremely emotionally damaging for a child to be born to a mother who was forced to have it, leading to lifelong emotional and social consequences for that child.

A foetus is not a child, its not independent and shouldn't be judged as the future human it will become. It absolutely has less rights than its mother, because of that.

I wish people could get as outraged about women's rights, as they do about foetal rights.

This story also concerns me because I think it would be a slippery slope to not allowing termination/testing for downs syndrome because "its like eugenics". Downs syndrome can be very severe and I don't blame any parents for choosing not to roll the dice to see if their downs syndrome child is more or less affected.

That link conflates 'lip' and 'palate' throughout. It doesn't say how severe the abnormality is in each case.

And it also fails to take into account the circumstances of the mother. She may be unable to cope with a child that needs intensive care such as tube feeding and multiple surgeries.

I agree with as early as possible, as late as necessary. However, just throwing an idea out there, do you think monthly home pregnancy testing could become the norm for women who don’t want to become pregnant? Contraception isn’t 100%, unfortunately, so if say it was to fail, wouldn’t you want to know as early as possible? Pregnancy is sometimes finally detected four or five months, or longer, down the line. Doing a cheap home test could save a woman from ending up in a much more difficult situation where she’s contemplating a late/ later abortion.
Some years ago I got into the routine of doing a home test every month, just for peace of mind. I now test maybe three times a year, just in case my pill fails.

@IcedSpice, what do you think about an otherwise healthy baby being aborted for a cleft palate. They do not show up on early scans

I know this wasn't directed at me but I was born with a cleft palate and I think if a woman doesn't feel like she can navigate the surgeries, speech therapy, bullying, esteem issues, feeding issues and frequent ear infections etc then that would be her choice. It isn't an easy-fix disibility, mine was "mild' and has ramifications in my life now as an adult.

In specific relation to this case, I'd make it "fair and equitable" by removing the 24 week legal limit in acases and making it up to birth.

@Anycrispsleft hello there, thank you for starting this thread.
Women do have skin in this game, you are right.

Sorry that was to @Twickytwo

The only reason a woman should need for an abortion is "I do not wish to continue this pregnancy"

Anything else on top - fine. But this should be the bar.