Disability/abortion debate in UK

[Bretontops]

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-11-04/teenager-with-downs-syndrome-meets-rishi-sunak-over-abortion-laws

This cause went to the High Court and was rejected, so why is Rishi meeting with her?

I’m getting irritated with this ‘pressure group’ who basically want to ensure more babies with disabilities are born by stealth, by taking choice away from women. I’m also dubious about how many of these disabled people are truly advocating for themselves and how many have been ‘encouraged’ to do so by pro life parents.

In some cases the parents had the screening but slipped through the net - so they didn’t make an active decision to parent a disabled child, but now expect others to do so, to affirm their circumstances presumably?

Prepared to be told AIBU, but I feel we should be able to discuss it as it’s potentially our rights they want to restrict.

But it’s the truth. It does a disservice to women who genuinely don’t want to be pregnant full stop to have other women saying they want to be pregnant with one gender but not another. Unless it’s some sort of fatal genetic issue affecting one gender only then how could that be a valid reason

And in this country women are able to have an abortion because they just do not want a baby. Women should have the right to not continue with an unwanted pregnancy for any reason.

I think it is preferable that someone aborts over gender than has a baby they really don't want, mistreats them or neglects them and produces a profoundly damaged person who suffers their lifetime for it.

What if there is a particular condition in the family that affects only 1 sex?

Because not wanting to continue a pregnancy is a valid reason. There doesn’t need to be an extra reason on top. If someone wants an abortion they genuinely don’t want to be pregnant.

By ‘good life expectancy’ do you mean length of life or quality of life? Who determines this?

The valid reason is “I do not want this baby”

Cross posted - yes obviously that’s a genuine concern im talking about a hypothetical someone who simply just doesn’t want a boy/girl

Abortion purely on the basis of not wanting a boy or girl is so wrong I can’t see there would be many cases like that surely as it’s about as shallow as you could get and I doubt there are that many women like that out there

Maybe making your views on this subject know to a rents of a child with a disability isnt such a great idea. Of course they will see it as a personal attack. I believe in abortion for any reason as a woman’s right. I wouldn’t discuss this with parents of a disabled child if I knew they strongly felt different to me.

How on earth is another womans choice over her own body and life doing anyone else a disservice.

What a valid reason in your eyes?

Wrong father?

Wrong age?

Would mess up a career opportunity?

Doesn't want baby number 5?

All of those reasons could upset someone else because they made different choices. We only have a responsibility to ourselves.

I’m all for women’s rights to reproductive autonomy, but you have to have a heart of stone and be very closed minded if you can’t at least see where this lady is coming from. She’s not trying to take rights away, she’s making the point that her life is still well worth living even if she has a disability.

I am pro choice but there has to be a line drawn I can’t see how anyone would abort just because they don’t want a baby of a specific gender. Medical
conditions affecting one gender only aside I just can’t see how it is right to abort based on gender preference

Personally I couldn't understand aborting a baby almost fully formed just because I dislike the gender?

So don’t do it. But you shouldn’t (imo) get to decide what reasons are acceptable for another woman to continue with a pregnancy she doesn’t want or to terminate that pregnancy. Her body, her choice. I personally trust women to make the choice that is right for themselves. Forced pregnancy and forced birth is far more wrong than any other scenario.

Yes the baby diagnosed after they were born, which I know was a very scary and traumatic time for the family as the baby had to be rushed away for tests and the parents were completely unprepared.

Only days after giving birth the mother was being bombarded by information and having to make big choices while her baby was off in special care, not even knowing if they'd survive the coming days.

It's not a situation I'd wish on anyone and as we have the means to check for many of these health issues before the birth I'd always suggest that someone had the tests even if they wouldn't terminate as they could at least be prepared for the outcome.

Seeing someone bring up a child with special needs and disabilities only makes me more prochoice as I can see how difficult it is and how their entire family lives have had to change to fit around their child in a way other families don't even have to consider.

Pregnancy, childbirth and parenting are hard, physically and emotionally, no woman should ever be forced to go through it unless she is sure its what she wants.

so you acknowledge it’s a strawman argument?

In any case, shallow women are allowed abortions too! You don’t have to wear sackcloth and ashes and be the perfect, tasteful example of abortion to be allowed to have one.

That’s not pro choice, then.

The difference is that in those scenarios the woman doesn’t want to be pregnant full stop

with gender selection abortion it’s saying pregnancy is ok with the preferred gender but not otherwise it’s like saying you want an abortion because your due date is in the wrong month or something !

you have to have a heart of stone and be very closed minded if you can’t at least see where this lady is coming from

I know a family involved in this case. They (the family I know) are completely anti choice. Using this as a wedge issue to try to roll back women’s right to abortion. I don’t have a heart of stone, I just don’t think that anyone has a right to determine what a woman should or should not do with her own body. I have more compassion for a fully formed woman than a foetus.

And, due to personal experience, I do not trust those involved in bringing / supporting this particular case.

Abortion was decriminalised in 2020 in NZ and there are now no clinical or statutory requirements below 20 weeks. After 20 weeks, a clinician is involved in discussing the pregnancy. It is therefore the woman's choice whether or not to continue with a pregnancy as it should be.

They're not controversial here 🤷‍♀️ aside from a reasonably small group of vocal anti-women groups. We trust women to make healthcare decisions that work for them. It was supported in parliament and by the public.

It's not something I've ever brought up with them. They have told me their views in person and aired them on social media enough for me to know how they feel. I have simply suggested to them that our views may not align as we're coming at it from different perspectives.

I suppose when I say "a wedge between us" it's more one sided than that implies.

i have a child with disabilities. To me, he is the entire universe. I love him so much it hurts to write it down. HOWEVER, it is fucking hard. So hard. DH and I have consciously chosen not to have more children in case they too are disabled and I 100% would have an abortion if I became pregnant again.

My life would not be better without DS in it because he is here and I know and love him, and I’ve counted his little freckles and seen him fall off the sofa because he laughed so hard at Andy and the Oddsocks, and watched him scream with joy on his first carousel ride and danced with him to abba. He has a lovely life and I love having him in my life. But knowing all the heartache and stress and sleeplessness and feelings of constant worry and failure that go alongside being a disability parent, if I could choose not to have children back before I had him, I probably would choose to remain childless.

Again, if DS had been born into a different family, who couldn’t cope with his very extensive needs, his life would be very different. That is exactly why we need to allow women to have their own individual right to choose and that needs to be protected.

I think a lot of women are so scared of the removal of their rights entirely that it clouds their judgement over ethical aspects of abortion and I do understand that but abortion based on gender isn’t ok ? What would be the reason ‘oh I don’t want another boy I’ve had 2 already ‘ or ‘I don’t like pink so I won’t have a girl’ .

Either you want to be pregnant or not . If not then go ahead and get an abortion. That’s the right thing to do but I can’t agree with the idea that abortion based on gender preference is ok ?

Interestingly enough I watched a video of someone interviewing women at a "pro choice" march the other day and it was interesting to see the amount of women there who actually disagreed with abortion after 12 weeks etc.

It's statistically impossible to know how many people are pro life / pro choice as people have too many differing views on it.

I think it's also unfair for people to think it's a majority of men though who are pro life as from experience I know many women who boarder the pro life side more than pro choice.

Abortion should be allowed IMO however there also needs to be lines drawn for when and with reason etc. which would then prevent people aborting for no reason.

I personally do not think it's okay to use abortion as a form of "regular" contraception, if you're choosing to not be safe and "wing" it when it comes to having sex - like some people I know have done previously, then there will obviously be consequences.

I think women ought to have autonomy over their bodies.

I'm also a worried about the way this campaign and others like it have been conducted. I'm thinking of this response:

I do think clarity is needed and a decisive list of conditions considered severe or criteria to be met not just individual non medical opinion on severity

This, to me, is a fundamental problem. Down's syndrome affects people very, very, very differently. It is one condition, but it is a huge spectrum of outcomes. It can be fatal in utero. It's not just a learning disability. Same with things like cleft palate. That condition is mentioned by campaigners who want us to imagine a child with a slight, winsome dent in their lip where a tiny split was surgically corrected. But if a cleft palate extends upwards into the middle of the skull/face, my understanding is it can be incompatible with life.

I think the emphasis on deciding which foetal conditions should be 'acceptable' reasons for abortion is another way to infantalise women. Pregnant women should be entitled to make their own decisions, and they should be given appropriate support to do that. I suspect that, on those stratospherically rate occasions when a foetus is terminated in late pregnancy, it is not because the mother though 'ugh, I don't like the look of a cleft palate' or 'ooh, I heard kids with Down's syndrome have learning disabiltiies!' It is far, far more likely the mother has heard that her child is likely to die.