Disability/abortion debate in UK

[Bretontops]

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-11-04/teenager-with-downs-syndrome-meets-rishi-sunak-over-abortion-laws

This cause went to the High Court and was rejected, so why is Rishi meeting with her?

I’m getting irritated with this ‘pressure group’ who basically want to ensure more babies with disabilities are born by stealth, by taking choice away from women. I’m also dubious about how many of these disabled people are truly advocating for themselves and how many have been ‘encouraged’ to do so by pro life parents.

In some cases the parents had the screening but slipped through the net - so they didn’t make an active decision to parent a disabled child, but now expect others to do so, to affirm their circumstances presumably?

Prepared to be told AIBU, but I feel we should be able to discuss it as it’s potentially our rights they want to restrict.

I personally do not think it's okay to use abortion as a form of "regular" contraception, if you're choosing to not be safe and "wing" it when it comes to having sex - like some people I know have done previously, then there will obviously be consequences.

Ugh this old chestnut.

Abortion isn’t contraception. Contraception is pregnancy prevention. And literallly now women say “Let’s bit use a condom because if I get pregnant I’ll just have an abortion”. I don’t believe for a minute that’s ever happened

I have had two late term TFMRs (also known as compassionate induction). One post 21w, my baby was born live, wr were utterly blessed to meet then earthside.

People comment on the morality of it without being able to comprehend the sheer scale of the horror and grief. What they think they would do.

Not a single woman, family, who "choose" TFMR do it lightly it without considering every single side of the coin, every iota of what their child's life could be, good and bad.

Every woman who has to TFMR does so because they don't want their child to suffer. It is pure love. There is no hell like it.

Women deserve to have the time, and the space to make those impossible choices for their baby, themselves, their families.

The ripples of grief and loss come every day, and last a life time, and that's without the judgement from others. Having to be careful what you share, how you share it.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

Of course her life is valid. Some women choosing termination does not have any bearing on the value of a life of a person who has nothing to do with them.

I feel the same. My son is now an adult. He’s amazing but his life is hard and Our lives are absolutely nothing like I imagined either. Our other children have had lives completely different to their peers. They love their brother and despite being younger than him they are very protective. They’ve missed out of loads though, no holidays, no days out, no family get togethers, never been able to have friends round and of course our time with them has been very limited. They’ve grown into amazing young people though and are very self sufficient. Had I known before I had kids how things would turn out I’d never had had children. None of my other children ever talk about having their own children either. The eldest is mid 30’s and she definitely doesn’t want any.

My nephew was born disabled, he has autism, ADHD & a other disabilities, he is an IVF twin & very much loved but will never be able to live independently. I worry about what will happen to him when my brother & SIL aren't around any more, his twin sister while she has autism is at the other end of the spectrum to her brother, is very clever & has ambitions to be an actress. I worry that when her parents pass away she will end up being responsible for her brother. I know that autism can't be picked up before birth & the other disabilities aren't life threatening but they are life changing for any parent. I would support any woman choosing abortion if she found out she was carrying a disabled child.

In NZ (where the law is as close to this as we are really going to get) I believe that it's worked out quite well.

@Loopyloopy what about India? Or China? Both have significant population imbalances because male fetuses are favoured over females.

goldsparklyChocolate
Is it true that conditions such as cleft lip is considered a ‘severe disability’ when it comes to abortion ? Is there a list of conditions classified severe ?

It is in New Zealand, they have some very controversial abortion laws including being allowed to abort just because you dislike the gender.
@cata09x

Highly misleading way of describing NZ abortion legislation. Abortion was only decriminalised in 2020 when the law was reformed. Now, before 20 weeks, abortion is permitted without any reason being provided. Correctly the reason for abortion is neither here nor there and therefore isn't asked. It's just access by right until 20 weeks. After that various conditions apply.

This thread has made me feel very odd. I always considered myself prochoice. I thought the limits were good, including the extension for if the foetus is found to have a serious condition.
I think it’s fine to abort for any reason at all up to the cut off. I’d also agree that a short extension would be beneficial in many ways.

However, I’m not sure I can get on board with abortion of a baby that has reached term just because you don’t like the gender. How is that any different to euthanising newborn babies?

I’m pro euthanasia but only for those that can make the choice themselves. But also, I know how traumatic birth can be for mothers so I wouldn’t want to force that on anyone. But surely they’d still have to birth the foetus if they aborted them at term?

I do appreciate it would be a rarity for anyone to terminate up to term for a reason such as wrong gender. They would likely know much sooner and therefore make the choice much sooner so I suppose extension of the time period for abortions wouldn’t actually be utilised like this that often and is therefore a good thing…?

It can be, a simple cleft lip no, a cleft lip where half the skull is missing yes.

A cleft lip with a number of other defects yes.

No there isn't a list because it would be impossible to do that.

Imagine a woman carrying a child that will have severe defects but as it is so severe no one has seen it before so it's not on the list.

Although I think this debate detracts from what to me, is the more important debate - the actually quality of life and support for parents and kids with disabilities…
There IS a reality that there is a question about the quality of life for an unborn child and the ability of a parent to undertake a lifelong high need caring role. It is usually mothers who have to give up a lot to care, and there is a reality that for many the stress is immense, and for some kids their struggles are also immense. So for me, this is a different debate than ‘choosing’ sex by abortion. It is not very fair to ‘wheel out’ a person with disabilities who is milder and independent to speak for all of those without a voice.

The positive / social view of disability as merely difference and not struggle portrayed everywhere has a lot of well meaning behind it, is not always helpful. All life’s matter, including those with disabilities, and for me that is more of the focus - we are letting down those who are currently living, now, with families.

For me, I do passionately feel that we are letting down families and many kids do have an awful time because the services for disabilities are not there.

And sadly the reality is that being pregnant with a child with possibly severe disabilities is a concern for many mother’s, precisely because there is very little support and they will be on their own. So society, for me, should focus on providing every possible resource so that a mother to be can feel that she won’t be left stranded by a society which advocates that all lives matter, but won’t care if that parent sinks under the larger responsibilities of care.

@NameChange1718 However, I’m not sure I can get on board with abortion of a baby that has reached term just because you don’t like the gender. How is that any different to euthanising newborn babies?

Where is this allowed?

I hate people with disabilities being used as a tool.

Abortion is an option.

It's a choice for women.

I hate abortion being seen as something that will hurt women.

Abortion frees women.

I've had five abortions.

None of them hurt me.

I keep seeing them as something that hurts women. As a thing that you won't get over.

It's very easy to get over an abortion.

It's not so easy to have a baby with a dickhead.

It's not so easy to have a baby with an abusive man.

A man who doesn't care.

Do. Not. Make. Your. Life. Shit.

I read an article by a doctor who explained how women abort out of maternal love and I've never forgotten it. Not everyone is in a position to give a disabled child a good quality life.

Maternal love?

Fucking Hell.

What about maternal choice.

CHOICE.

What about women being able not to fuck our lives over.

What about that?

I am very pro choice. However I can't believe a baby would be aborted up til birth, what then? A baby can survive at that gestation, what do they do?
... off to read the article...

I think an important aspect of aborting because of a disability is that you find out quite far into your pregnancy that you are going to have an adult that will continue to need your care. That is a very different choice to wanting to have a child who then becomes independent and allows you to be free of caring responsibilities into your own old age.

I agree with this ^^

As a person with a disability and someone who chose not to have children because of that - it does properly piss me off when those rather lucky, privileged people with disabilities who got VERY lucky with their parents, who are minimally affected by their genetic condition... trundle off to be activists and speak seemingly on behalf of everyone else.

I don't see the 6ft 23 stone bloke who can't come out of his bedroom, has a severe heart condition, can't be left alone with women or children because he has no idea how to behave appropriately and lives a very frightened, uncertain life with his almost 70 year old parents (who are also pretty frightened about their lives and his future) campaigning... (not an invention, I know this person, he is a sweetheart but his life is hard to manage and hard to live!)

The only reason anyone needs for wanting an abortion is wanting an abortion.

Thats it, thats the bottom line for me - I'd be happy if abortion for that reason, any reason, were legal at any point.

Because as violent and horrific as a very late abortion might be - there is no comparison to a child leading a miserable life with parents who can't cope, or in the care system, with no parent at all.

Its really never happened, it is so horrific for all concerned it seriously isn't a thing.

It is not something anyone is asking for on a whim, nor is it something any doctor would do without solid reason.

But the law has to be worded the way it is.

We do not live in a society with full bodily autonomy. We cannot sell our organs. We do not practice euthanasia. We place restrictions on termination and surrogacy.

This is an interesting and valid point. I'm always interested in the intersection of feminism where people are very anti-surrogacy yet are insistent that there should never be any limits on abortion whatsoever. I have no absolute views on either abortion or surrogacy, for the record.

I would abort in that situation. I have even good reasons I could argue it , having seen disabilities like DS as they age, and the effect it has on siblings both before and after the parents death. I would have to abandon the baby if I was forced to carry it, or risk doing myself some serious damage in an illegal abortion.
however, what it comes down to is...:
Abortion is a highly traumatic experience, especially past 20 weeks. No woman would go through that without extremely good reasons. Reasons good enough that they'll be trying to do it regardless. Keep abortions safe.

Exactly ^^
I have met someone who can't not only be left alone with women or children, but also the cat.
Why don't they get these people on there to give a balanced view? The poster faces for this campaign are a tiny percentage of what the reality of living with that disability is like. However I also believe they are vulnerable and are being used.

Exactly. If your unborn baby is diagnosed with Down Syndrome it is assumed immediately that you will choose to abort. Indeed a friend who chose to keep her child was heavily pressured by medics around her who told her effectively what a burden her child would be.
Her child is thriving. They are a much loved and cherished member of their family. She is healthy and is most definitely not a burden. Based on how she is doing now she may well be able to live independently and work. Her life is valid

Her life is valid but not everyone wants a DS child. And no one should be forced to. Not all DS children are the same level

The legal restriction of abortion in India is comparatively strict.