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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Disability/abortion debate in UK

237 replies

Bretontops · 07/11/2022 21:53

www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-11-04/teenager-with-downs-syndrome-meets-rishi-sunak-over-abortion-laws

This cause went to the High Court and was rejected, so why is Rishi meeting with her?

I’m getting irritated with this ‘pressure group’ who basically want to ensure more babies with disabilities are born by stealth, by taking choice away from women. I’m also dubious about how many of these disabled people are truly advocating for themselves and how many have been ‘encouraged’ to do so by pro life parents.

In some cases the parents had the screening but slipped through the net - so they didn’t make an active decision to parent a disabled child, but now expect others to do so, to affirm their circumstances presumably?

Prepared to be told AIBU, but I feel we should be able to discuss it as it’s potentially our rights they want to restrict.

OP posts:
GreenWheat · 10/11/2022 05:30

The only exception should be if the child would clearly have a very poor quality of life if born.

The difficulty with that is defining "poor quality". Some would say Down's means poor life quality. It's not as straightforward as deciding which conditions lead to poor life quality because some of "life quality" in disability depends what access to care the disabled person has, including parental ability to care for them.

whatkatydid2013 · 10/11/2022 06:11

SnotRag22 · 08/11/2022 09:47

It wouldn't, and doesn't happen that term babies are aborted, just because. Ever.

Babies who have DS, when their mothers choose TFMR are, overwhelmingly, born shortly after the dating scan. Anomalies that necessitate a late TFMR often can't, or aren't picked up until the anatomy scan, which can be anywhere from 18-21w.

When a mother chooses compassionate induction for a late term baby, it's because that baby will suffer and then die. And the mother cannot bear to watch her darling baby fade away in pain.

Once you have been through the anatomy scan. Then there's a very detailed and lengthy follow up scan in fetal medicine, and then often another "making absolutely sure scan". You are referred to a specialist medical team who discuss your baby's diagnosis with you. There is often a bereavement MW present. You are given the full picture. Sometimes tests need to be done another few weeks down the line, so you wait, and hope, and pray. And google, and find articles and websites. Any knowledge or facts that you can.

If the worst happens, and your baby continues to deteriorate, or their prognosis/diagnosis becomes even poorer, then you have to choose. It's not a real choice. You spend the time between appointments desperately hoping that their heart will stop on its own so you don't have to choose. It's already your fault that they're poorly, now you have to make this choice for them. The hell of it is something I can't accurately describe.

You have to give birth regardless. And you pack a bag for a child that will never come home, and go to hospital knowing that you will leave with empty arms. You take a fluffy blanket to wrap them in, a book to read them "guess how much I love you". Maybe the baby bubble bath you'd already bought and put in the cupboard with a packet of newborn stashed nappies that you picked up after your 12w scan. "Getting prepared" you thought to yourself at the time.

I was encouraged to have a D&E under general anesthesia with my second TFMR but was made aware that they were generally only done up to 15/16w so I needed to think quickly as it becomes riskier for the mother. I didn't choose that method with either of mine.

You are told that they cannot feel pain yet, not before 26w, they're not sentient, their brains haven't developed those receptors. And you take that and hold it and hope that they only ever know warmth, love, and your heartbeat. That they've never known pain, fear, hunger and never will

Between then and 22w you give birth without having to consider the injection.

Post 22w then it is offered to have the injection. Not necessarily for all conditions, some babies will not survive the trauma of birth regardless of their gestation.

You have to sign things to say you understand that your baby won't be given medical assistance etc and you swallow a pill to begin your labour.

You give birth to your precious baby, name them and begin memory making, hand and footprints, reading them stories, sing to them, just being with them. You apologize "Mammy is so sorry, she's so sorry my baby, she loves you more than you can ever know". And you carry your cold, dead baby up to a mortuary, you kiss their head, weep and hand them to a nurse who will place them in a cold cot . You leave, amongst happy, excited new dads with car seats, waddling new mums who are smiling, content. Then you begin to plan their funeral and start a life which is different from the one before. You are forever changed. You are not the same person. And you can never be sure, if you share your story, that the person won't react with disgust at you and never look at you again in the same way. You can never be guaranteed kindness in your loss and grief.

Nobody would choose this because the baby was the sex they didn't want or because they didn't fancy being pregnant any longer. Nobody.

It is unpalatable for people to imagine a fully formed baby being "killed", but you cannot imagine the horror of having to live it. These are not unwanted babies, they have been planned for, hoped for, prayed for. They are named and remembered and loved.

I’m so very sorry for your loss.

PawPaworPapaya · 10/11/2022 06:12

I think it's important that the discussion about this issue includes what happens after these disabled babies are born. The two things should go hand in hand.

If they want more women having severely disabled children then they need to make some very drastic changes to support this. As far as I can see, services and support are being brutally cut back, rather than improved.

whatkatydid2013 · 10/11/2022 06:24

The two friends I have who had late terminations were absolutely devastated their babies were not compatible with life. Both of them were diagnosed with Anencephaly at the 20 week scans (actually closer to 22 weeks in one case) and they needed time to process that news and explore if there was any real chance their much loved and wanted babies could be ok. In reality women who have late abortions are pretty much exclusively women who have just had the worst news of their lives at a scan halfway through a pregnancy they are excited about. There are already few abortions after the first trimester at all even though the current law allows them up to 24 weeks. If there really are women who would choose to abort after 24 weeks because they just don’t fancy having a baby and didn’t get round to doing anything sooner then I’d suggest you consider what kind of parent they’d make. I don’t think these women actually exist though. They are just a convenient construct to make us question women’s rights to bodily autonomy that are trotted out by groups that don’t want any access to abortion at all but know their true position isn’t likely to sway many people.

Tommyrot · 10/11/2022 07:31

GreenWheat · 10/11/2022 05:30

The only exception should be if the child would clearly have a very poor quality of life if born.

The difficulty with that is defining "poor quality". Some would say Down's means poor life quality. It's not as straightforward as deciding which conditions lead to poor life quality because some of "life quality" in disability depends what access to care the disabled person has, including parental ability to care for them.

All babies need parental care or other care. If access to parental care isn't taken into account for those that aren't disabled people it shouldn't be for disabled.

sashh · 10/11/2022 07:57

Tommyrot · 10/11/2022 07:31

All babies need parental care or other care. If access to parental care isn't taken into account for those that aren't disabled people it shouldn't be for disabled.

That's ridiculous.

Yes looking after a baby, any baby, is hard but when the baby needs to be fed by tube, hooked up to machines, have drips inserted. then there is no comparison.

Tommyrot · 10/11/2022 08:06

sashh · 10/11/2022 07:57

That's ridiculous.

Yes looking after a baby, any baby, is hard but when the baby needs to be fed by tube, hooked up to machines, have drips inserted. then there is no comparison.

If someone has a condition that means they need to be fed by tubes, have trips inserted then that would be covered under "poor quality of life."

pikiwop54 · 11/11/2022 16:16

I might believe this was just a photo op for him if it wasn't for his choice of minister for women.

HotCoffee22 · 11/11/2022 21:05

whatkatydid2013 · 10/11/2022 06:24

The two friends I have who had late terminations were absolutely devastated their babies were not compatible with life. Both of them were diagnosed with Anencephaly at the 20 week scans (actually closer to 22 weeks in one case) and they needed time to process that news and explore if there was any real chance their much loved and wanted babies could be ok. In reality women who have late abortions are pretty much exclusively women who have just had the worst news of their lives at a scan halfway through a pregnancy they are excited about. There are already few abortions after the first trimester at all even though the current law allows them up to 24 weeks. If there really are women who would choose to abort after 24 weeks because they just don’t fancy having a baby and didn’t get round to doing anything sooner then I’d suggest you consider what kind of parent they’d make. I don’t think these women actually exist though. They are just a convenient construct to make us question women’s rights to bodily autonomy that are trotted out by groups that don’t want any access to abortion at all but know their true position isn’t likely to sway many people.

Heat hear.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 11/11/2022 22:31

phoenixrosehere · 09/11/2022 15:12

Surrogacy involves a woman consenting to carrying a baby for another person or couple. Just because the people she is carrying the baby don’t have to go through the hardships of pregnancy, doesn’t mean they are not involved or impacted. If a surrogate is told that the baby she is carrying for someone else will not survive she and the person and people she is carrying for are still impacted.

This is about bodily autonomy.

The bodies of the womb hirers, sorry bio parents, are NOT impacted by the surrogacy.

I can’t believe I have to point out the difference.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 11/11/2022 22:32

Untitledsquatboulder · 09/11/2022 16:05

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet surrogacy involves a woman making decisions about the contents of her uterus, just as with termination. Either that's ok and she should be allowed to do so with no questions asked, or it isn't and conditions and limitations may be applied to provide wider societal protections.

Ok then let me ask you this - why can’t I sell my organs? It’s my body, right?

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 11/11/2022 22:33

LemonDrop22 · 09/11/2022 16:09

You can still have laws governing how foetuses are treated

What do you think the basic laws should be?

Incidentally a v late term foetus would be termed a baby if outside the womb. Literally a layer of muscle and a birth process between the two.
Why should they have no rights to life inside the womb but a right to life outside it.

Because you have to draw the line somewhere.

Being independent of another person’s body is a pretty good line IMO

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