For asking my Ukrainian guest to get a job so they can move out?

[Erith1985]

Wondering if anyone else is going through the same thing.

I’ve been hosting a Ukrainian guest at my house for six months. I’m appalled by the war and I have a big spare room with its own bathroom and so although I normally live alone by choice, I offered up my room. The first few months were ok, they are clean and tidy and were out and about a fair amount so we didn’t get in each other’s way. We didn’t discuss length of stay when they first arrived because I didn’t want them to feel unwelcome. I figured I would bring it up when they got a job.

That hasn’t happened. They say they have been sending off their CV and getting some interviews, but they haven’t secured anything. It seems they have only been looking at jobs in their previous sector, and that they have pretty high salary expectations since they’re complaining about the 45% tax rate. In the meantime, they’ve now settled into a routine that means they are at home nearly all the time - coming down to cook three times a day and only seeming to leave the house to go to the gym or the job centre, and spend most of the time in between instagramming. It feels like the heating and / or the oven is constantly on and they aren’t very communicative so when we’re in the shared space at the same time it feels awkward.

We finally had the conversation a month or so ago to say that I would like my hosting to end at the end of November, which they accepted on the basis that they were sure they would have secured one of the jobs they were going for by then, but there’s no sign of that being the case. When I ventured that they might need to look at work that wasn’t their first choice sector, they looked at me like I was mad and said that they’d rather start her own business (!) They’ve also mentioned several times how expensive flats in our area are and how they needs the big salary they want to be able to afford it.

I’m really just at a loss for how to handle this situation - I obviously won’t be turfing them out on the streets but how do I make them see that they might have to accept work that is not their ideal and work towards it? And / or rent a room that is outside of London to be able to afford it? They have great language skills, and there’s no reason they couldn’t find work other than they aren’t willing to consider something which isn’t their “dream job” and furthering their career; I totally get wanting that, but not at the expense of being able to support yourself. I’m worried that I am now just stuck hosting as long as they want me to, and the Council have been no help (basically got a letter saying “no other hosts available and we hope you’ll help them as long as they need you”.)

Am I being unreasonable for wanting them to work harder at getting a job (any job) so that I can have my house back?

If they are perfectly capable of taking jobs below their qualifications in Poland, they should be able to do it here. What if war goes on for another 2-3 years? (I doubt it, but let's assume the scenario). YANBU.

This is very difficult and I have immigrant parents so I understand. I think many of you have been very brave to take in Ukranians given the situation. From my own experience as a child of immigrants, many of those who move with established careers struggled to settle. (Unless you move the job offer). It's very difficult to move down on the career ladder, and accept an amazon warehouse job when you have been middle management or a professional. On the other hand, as a new migrant, you don't have a established career record in the new country. What I see from my parents friends are that many moved back to their home country after a short stint, sending money over to support the children (and/or SAHP). Many start their own business. Only those that have no choice will accept a big drop in their career path.

Obviously for these Ukranians, they can't move back. But it's a very bitter pill to swallow to accept what has happened to their own country. It's all very sad. (And of course don't help your situation as the host).

Yes, the Ukrainians were told that the host families were being paid to have them. My friends guests believed she was receiving £500pp per week to host them and as such they complained about the food.

I still find it so utterly bizarre that this whole scheme was implemented without even half a blueprint and very little in the way of essential security vetting. The counter-argument would be that it was a desperate situation. I know that, but still 😯

I am hosting successfully but she works, she’s clean, respectful and pleasant. Someone refusing to work, keeping heating on all day, dirty, lazy, noisy … no chance. I couldn’t do it and they’d be referred to the council for housing. I wouldn’t feel guilty about it at all because I’m doing the best I can manage as the OP and other hosts are but if more than that is required then you must look after your own family and mental health first. No one should refuse to work without a very good reason.

Terrible situation because they’ve literally lost everything and you don’t want to feel as if you are adding to that loss. But there has to be a huge lowering of expectations on their part for now. Refugees throughout history (my family included) experienced a much worse way of life when they first came here. It took time (a lot of it in my family’s case) to get back to a way of life anything like they were used to in their home country. It’s not right and it’s not fair, but to use that crappy cliche ‘It is what it is’. You have given your guest warmth, food, safety and understanding at a terrible time but they can’t stay with you indefinitely while they get back to the same standard of life they had back home. That could take many years.

Yes! Finally someone who said it!

To get someone to leave your home if they choose not to will be impossible to achieve. For those saying change the locks or take them to the council has no idea of the law regarding this situation.

This is simply untrue. They are living with their landlord, so they are not tenants but lodgers, or "excluded occupiers" to use the proper legal term.

They have very few rights - just to reasonable notice before eviction, and there is no court process, you can simply change the locks once the notice expires.

england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/renting/occupiers_with_limited_security/excluded_occupiers

The bigger issue is the housing shortage. I'm in a midsize city and have just looked on spareroom.co.uk (for those who don't know, it's the main alternative to Rightmove for those seeking flatshares and lodgers). I've run a search and there's currently 139 adverts for rooms to rent, and 619 people who are advertising themselves as potential flatmates. There just isn't enough to go around.

If the first six months have ended and things would be tolerable were the Ukrainian out of the house working and contributing, the midpoint might be to start charging market rent for the room, and treat it as a normal lodger arrangement. You can benchmark on spareroom but my city (nowhere near London) market rent for a room is around £600 including bills (obviously it varies with size, condition, fashionable neighbourhoods and so on). The first £7500 of rent and bills is tax free under the rent a room scheme.

(In case anyone is wondering, I've not had a Ukrainian, but I've had several regular lodgers, including currently).

Can you pretend that a friend/relation needs somewhere to stay? Give then the notice and have a friend come round to ‘look’ at the room.

Reclaim your space and stay home more. Make more noise, take over the kitchen with batch cooking. You sound like you might be one of those people who is very considerate of others, perhaps be less so.

Completely agree.

I wouldn't tolerate this from my children whom I love, why would someone tolerate it from someone they are doing IMO, a huge good turn for?

Not a chance.

Tukmgru · Yesterday 17:37
These replies have been really helpful, now we know which ways we can gently nudge the brits into hating Ukrainians without sounding like complete dicks. Everyone is so earnest and caring except that they aren’t - we enjoy the repeated use of ‘beggars can’t be choosers throughout’ by largely well off people in the Uk (I.e Mumsnet) when referring to people who are fleeing invasion - we‘ll start using that.

Love, the Kremlin“

Don’t be foolish.

@TheWomanTheyCallJayne

Another example of (some) Ukrainians taking their hosts for a ride - they have had the right work here the minute they arrived in the UK, there is no "fight" despite what the women your parents are hosting says

Exactly 100%

You've been more than generous, give them notice to move out, they clearly need a reality check

OP's first post on MN and hasn't returned to the thread so far...just saying.

I've hosted Ukrainian and Belarusian children for 4 week periods as part of the Chernobyl project. It was really rewarding but very hard work.
I breathed such a sigh of relief when they left and I was able to get my life back together again. I feel so sorry for you but you have to plan an exit strategy.

Elephant, I think you are right - my exit strategy is to explain to my guest that if she has not found a place to live after the 12 months is up, we will be moving to a situation where she can be a lodger at the market rent for the area. For me, for an en suite room in my area, that is about £850 a month. If she chooses to keep paying that then I will suck it up. I suspect however she will use this as an good prompt to find a similar set up somewhere considerably cheaper and with people her own age which would be better all round.

Right from the start, the comms to Ukrainians (and copied to hosts) should have been:

• you have the right to work from the day you arrive
• you will be expected to find work if able
• UC is available for those who cannot work or as a temporary solution
• your sponsor is being paid a gratuity by the government to thank them for hosting you. You will need to buy your own food and should expect to contribute to bills from the outset. A guide is £xx per person per week
• housing is expensive and you will need to begin to make a plan on arrival. While we hope that your sponsors will be able to accommodate you for six months be prepared for this to end sooner and do not assume it will continue beyond this

Instead they were told essentially nothing and have as a result based expectations on social media rumours, what they see being offered to peers which varies wildly from host to host and have had enormously different experiences in terms of local authority support and encouragement from their job centre contacts (in some cases they've been told it's fine to not work and to focus on learning English whereas others have been given the same message any Uk citizen would have had.)

Other refugees come to the UK and have a far worse time of it. The 'they can't do anything because they are traumatised' argument doesn't wash. Thats a luxury that a refugee does not have. Thats harsh, but thats the blunt reality and its not just true of the UK.

There are certain realities of being a refugee. That means getting a job, any job, even if its a job 'below you'.

My experience dealing with Ukrainians is you have to spell things out in no uncertain terms to many. British politeness does not mix well with Ukrainian culture / language (not sure which it is - perhaps a mix of both). Any softness they take as an opportunity.

For example if you say its the difference between 'you should' and 'you must' - You should get a job is intepreted as there is room not to get a job, whereas as you must get a job leaves no room for confusion.

Many hosts went into this with an attitude of giving the benefit of the doubt and feeling like they needed to be soft and sympathetic to their hosts. Its lead to many guests getting very comfortable and having no incentive to get up and do anything, and a bewilderment when they are eventually told to get the fuck on with things or are simply given the boot.

Its ultimately NOT in the interests of guests for hosts to be overly nice and to do everything for them, because they don't appreciate the situation they are in fully and it enables them to fail to take full responsibility for themselves.

And this is it. Many hosts struggling with the guilt need to remind themselves they are NOT responsible for other adults, even in this situation. There are many things that these Ukrainians CAN do. Most, after six months of living off someone else and claiming benefits, have a sizeble amount of money built up. They CAN afford a deposit on a place which is more than many Brits.

What I've found is that even around here where there are places available to rent at an affordable level many of the Ukrainians are turning their noses up at the cost. I know of one family of 5 where both parents are working, talking about getting a 1 bed flat because 'thats all they an afford'. Its simply NOT true for them. Nor will any landlord around here agree to take them in a 1 bed flat so they are going to immediately run into problems renting somewhere because their expectations are off for the UK. They would struggle to get a landlord to rent them a 2 bed around here, even though there are properties available. They CAN afford a 3 bed on their income.

However they have been staying in a lovely 5 bed house in a nice area with a nice family, and the reality of having to leave the security of that is really the rub. They are used to living in smaller places with more people. This isn't true of the family of 6 they are staying with... And thats repeated all over the country. Almost every host on the homes for Ukraine scheme lives in a nice area in a big enough house to accomodate additional people because the requirements of the scheme insisted on a minimum amount of space (this contrasts with the family scheme where no such requirements were made). So there is a shock to the system for most Ukrainians in adjusting to life on their own.

But yes, I do think hosts have been victims of their own generousity in this respect and being nice and not putting pressure on guests to get on with it, has put them in a difficult position now. And since 'norms' and expectations have been established within a house its much more difficult to suddenly get tough. Hosts feel enormous guilt over it. But they HAVE to do so, for the best interests of their guest. If the war continues for 3 or 4 years, their guests HAVE to be able to manage that and its simply not realistic for any host to do it for that long. The longer Ukrainians don't get a job, the harder it will become because employers will start to ask questions about why they haven't done sooner. Indeed, many councils will go guarantor at the moment but that might not continue indefinitely. Ukrainians have a responsibility to themselves here which shouldn't be ignored. If a guest doesn't get the message hosts have little option but to involve the council and say you can no longer continue hosting.

I know some hosts feel shame over doing this. Don't. The government SHOULD be providing accomodation for refugees. They have a responsibility to do so. Regardless of what citizens felt they should do to help off their own backs. They palmed that onto citizens, which perhaps is fair enough, but we should be running this country so that there are enough houses for Brits AND enough accomodation for refugees anyway. It is NOT an either or. The government need to step up on this and sort out the problem. Ukrainians, who were given 6 months to sort their own shit out will be in the same boat as other refugees - thats their own missed opportunity not the host's fault nor responsibility. Its harsh, but it doesn't mean that hosts haven't been amazing and haven't done their bit either.

It is hard. But thats just how it is, and thats what hosts need to wrap their heads around.

This.

‘Funny they don’t do it for other refugees fleeing war, isn’t it.’

actually I think you will find that there have been many such schemes, especially since 2015, although it is true that they concentrated mainly on children and young people. This was often undertaken in a fostering role, but there were other 18- 25 year olds who were taken into families or single adult homes. I personally know a woman who hosted a young woman from Ethiopia ( although some doubt emerged later). The Turnham Green Tube wannabe was placed as a foster child, as well.

The main problem is that a vast proportion of the current asylum seekers are young men, and many people do not feel as relaxed about inviting a young man with very little fluency in any European language into their homes. Probably the feeling is mutual.

1. There is a stigma for hosts to say this. There is a massive issue with hosts feeling shame over even considering asking guests to leave. Its just as likely to be a name change as something more sinister
2. I am hearing stories identical to the OPs first hand. There are numerous threads on MN where their are multiple posters saying the same thing too.

There is a real issue here that isn't being properly addressed which should be acknowledged and admitted rather than the 'its stirring up hatred to Ukrainians' bullshit.

Hosts in this situation are amongst the most pro-refugee there are, but have a real problem. And they need support as much as Ukrainians do. There has NEVER been any support for hosts and there's been minimual support for ukrainians and thats ultimately the problem and where blame lies.

There has been a huge amount of disinformation circulating online in Ukrainian circles. The government should have had clear messaging in Ukrainian from the beginning and hosts should have been given much better guidance. The disparity of experience and expectations between households has been a major part of the issue and the problems we are now seeing arising.

And tbh, this was clearly happening already even in mid July - and the government did fuck all to address this, which they could.

I dont understand why people are like 'I cant kick them out'... they are fully grown adults that you dont owe a life too, people push their own kids out of the nest for less to teach them to grow up and fly.

If you kick them out they get sent to the coucil and put in a halfway hostel, I have been in one as a homeless person at 16, they are awful but damn sure it will light a fire under there ass to get their shit sorted.

There are hundreds of english people in thes halfway houses so why are they far too bad for Ukrainians who are refusing to sort thing out? No one got paid and guilted into taking us in and helping and I was techincally still a kid when in them.

6 months is plenty of time you gave them and they arent your responsability or life long job.

Thanks for all your input- it really helps to “share” the problem.

Just to clarify, I don’t at all believe that Ukrainian refugees are “beggars”, or that they are “freeloaders” out to take hosts for all they can, or that they have any choice to go back - Ukraine is still a war zone. I have real sympathy for wanting to maintain the middle management / leadership position and salary range that my guest had. I’d probably have the same instincts, I just don’t know how to start the conversation that they might need to consider other options. I think as some poster suggested I need to now set a hard deadline (probably end of the year, realistically) and use that conversation to return to the point about widening their job search.

Agree with posters that have highlighted how poorly this scheme was planned by the government. I have been shocked how little guidance or support the council has offered, especially to be told when I notify them that the hosting will come to an end that they basically can’t help and please just keep hosting.

Also a host in almost exactly the same situation. My guest refuses point blank to get a job she seems 'beneath her'. She has been offered work in supermarkets, factories and cafes but she won't do it. Her English isn't even good enough for more professional jobs. I'm at a loss what to do. My view is that staying with us is emergency housing and getting a job would be an emergency job, you take anything. She complains all the time about job centre visits which she considers ridiculous and I'm sure the benefits agency wouldn't dare sanction her because of the bad publicity. In her defence, I think the other Ukrainian people have laughed at and looked down on people who have taken those sort of jobs. Anyway, she's looking for a new sponsor now as she's had enough of me, plus, she doesn't like the school her kid's in. She thinks she'll get a council place soon.