Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

The suicide rate in Ireland is absolutely through the roof, is their a weird acceptance of ‘gods will’ in deaths? Just wondering

I'm sorry but that is bloody rude. Perhaps you are used to people sharing your personal information willy-nilly as they like, but that is not an acceptable workplace practice. If someone wishes to share their personal information then they can do so- or they can ask a manager to do so if they feel that is easier for them. We don't think that gossiping about people's personal stuff is appropriate, and managers who do that have a tendency to not have their jobs for very long.

As for her employer requiring her to return to work or get signed off, that is entirely fair. Three weeks off without any formal sickness absence being registered is an incredibly long period of time. The circumstances are truly awful yes, but then that's what everyone thinks about their own circumstances, and employers cannot simply allow open-ended paid leave. Three weeks is way more than most employers would permit for compassionate leave, no matter how bad the circumstances.

It isn't a "cultural thing" - it's a respect thing and a fairness thing; to respect someone's privacy and to treat employees in the same way regardless of circumstances.

I think you'll find it's caused by depression

Your right it is culture the Irish response to death seems ott to me personally but I can absolutely see how the English come across as cold hearted I'm somewhere in the middle personally

I think there are probably 2 different things happening here: a cultural difference in expectations around bereavement and your office possibly being a bit weird about this situation.

I'm Irish have lived in UK for 8 years. I know more about, and have shared more of myself with, colleagues I worked with in Ireland for a few months than I do colleagues I've been working with for 2 years in the UK. Culturally, Irish people tend to be nosier/more community-minded than British people generally. Funerals and bereavement are just a display of that difference. Neither are intrinsically better than the other but I know what I feel more comfortable with!

I think in your situation I would be assuming that your colleague had asked for the information not to be shared and to drop the idea that a team card or flowers should be sent. However, I would also be likely to contact my colleague privately to offer my condolences. I don't know how it is likely to be received but I would want to let the bereaved person that I was thinking of them. Some people might find that offensive but I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I ignored a colleague's significant bereavement.

OP, in my experience, it's cultural. The reaction to death and bereavent in the UK is the polar opposite to home. When I suffered a recent bereavent, my direct team, who are not British, sent text messages and arranged for a card and flowers to be delivered to me in Ireland. Two of my colleagues travelled to Ireland for a weekend. Another ex colleague who was on a business trip in a different part of the country travelled to my home town. All this was to offer support and a shoulder to cry on.

When I returned to work a few months later, not one of my British colleagues acknowledged my bereavement. I found it very odd, cold and unsympathetic.

When my elderly neighbour's husband passed away, I called to her with a card, flowers and food. I apologised for the intrusion and explained our culture re death and bereavent. My lovely neighnour cried and said it was a lovely gesture.

In your situation, I'd probably follow your colleague's lead and not make contact.
Your manager sounds unfeeling and cold though

Wotcher @mathanxiety

My point wasn't cultural.
It was that the colleague has clearly requested privacy, & that should be respected whether she is Irish, English, or Swahili.

The kind gesture for this colleague is to respect her wishes - not insist on sending a card & flowers just because that's what your culture would normally do.

I'm anglo-irish btw ...

I kept my cancer and the loss of a pregnancy secret from everyone bar DH... its no fucker elses business.

You dont care about her you're just a gossip, maybe mind your own business and let this lady grieve in peace without turning it into a circus show all about you.

Maybe the circumstances of this murder mean your colleague doesn't want the whole office knowing?

If she was such a good friend, surely she would have told you?

Your team leader seems quite adamant that a team card is not appropriate so I'd heed her advice.

It seems your employer has been quite flexible with the amount of time off. 1 week compassionate leave seems to be the norm in places where I worked. Any more and your colleague will need to be signed off. I do agree, though, they could allow her to work from home for a while longer.

And I'll thank you to pack in with the cultural crap.

Yes it’s an English thing. I agree it is very cold.
In Ireland it would be unthinkable not to make contact with a work colleague who had experienced a bereavement. Particularly such a close and traumatic one. Commonly in Ireland people would go to funeral of close family members of colleagues.

Yes I totally agree.

It is almost certainly a cultural thing but also the fact that it was murder probably makes it even trickier.

I don’t think the English are generally cold to bereavement: culturally they just show their caring and concern by leaving the family to their privacy/not prying/not initiating social contact at a time it may not be wanted etc.

Also Im from an Irish family and live in England... the way the Irish Catholics I know (and are related to) react to death is fucking wierd and creepy, No one can sit there and say weeping widows turning up to random funerals in full black wedding veils is anything but.

It is certainly not the people wanting privary that are boundry stamping or out of line.

This is NOT English culture. It's the MN toxic crew sticking the boot in, as usual.

I think you sound like a caring person. In my workplace, flowers and condolences would of course be sent but maybe there is something going on in this instance that you aren't privy to?

Do you live in the 1950's?

It's the MN toxic crew sticking the boot in, as usual
The majority of posts are by the same person using different names

I work in the public sector in Northern Ireland. Every Friday our director sends out a round robin email to everyone working in the directorate. It includes work related news, new joiners etc. Most weeks it also includes condolences about such and such's mother having died or funeral details for another colleagues father. Even when funerals were family only due to COVID, it was expected that at least a few colleagues would go and stand outside the church put of respect. My husband is English and he didn't even attend the funeral of an uncle who committed suicide and thought I was completely mad to spend an hour standing outside the funeral of someone I didn't know on my day off
. My husband is a lovely caring individual, but the cultural differences between the two nationalities in relation to death are quite strong.

No and I believed 'normal' Irish people didnt either just the die hard catholics but the OP is definately putting out the same vibe as are other commenters saying they would go to the funeral of this man they never met.

I would be furious if people at work were told about my private issues. I find it weird to want to get a card from colleagues in such circumstances.

I only read the first page but found the responses on it shocking.

I’m Irish too though. One of my colleagues lost their dad not long after I started in my current job. Not only was everyone told via email, the whole office went to the funeral to do a guard of honour (local man).
We were all told about the passing of a colleagues father-in-law too.

People in most offices I’ve worked in have all been very friendly too. We know a lot about each other’s lives and death (especially a murder!) wouldn’t be treated as a secret. I also know flowers were given at my colleague’s dad’s funeral (not sure about the other).

I mean, I'm not a die hard Catholic by any stretch of the imagination but if I was in Ireland and my colleague's brother was murdered, I'd attend the funeral and so would most of the people I know.

It's not creepy, it's displaying respect the the dead and care for the living. I appreciate that in the UK it is not the done thing so I wouldn't do it here but fuck me your comments about Irish Catholic people are horrible!

@mam0918

Weeping widows in full black wedding veils?

For starters, the lacy veil is called a mantilla.

Secondly...
Seriously?

It's the MN toxic crew sticking the boot in, as usual
The majority of posts are by the same person using different names

It's the MN paranoia crew again. Anyone whose opinion you don't agree with is 'toxic' or a sock-puppet.

I'm thinking it's simply your relatives who are like that.

I was married into an Irish Catholic family and no-one ever turned up in black wedding veils weeping at funerals unless they were, indeed, the widow or similarly close family - mother, sister, daughter. And, even then, there were no veils.

I think your issue (read rampant bigotry) is more with Catholicism than anything else.