Is this weird - work related - is it cultural?

[cofingalthetime]

So just to start - I'm Irish.
So I work in a office in a small team. Colleagues has been off for 3 weeks. The first week she was off I asked the team leader was she ok, and she said she it was "personal". So of course I respect people's privacy and didn't want to pry and so I didn't ask anything or mention it again. I was in the office with TL and one other girl yesterday. And I just happened to say to the other girl "I hope X is ok, she has been off for a while" and the girl said did I not know, but X's brother had been murdered! I was so shocked, and upset that I didn't know. I asked her had flowers or a card not been sent -and she said no - that not even our Head knew what happened, that the TL hadn't told anyone, and this girl had heard it from a completely different friend of X's. (X is friends with people outside our dept, she's worked there for years).

I said we should organise at least a card from our team, to let her know we were thinking of her. That we should maybe send flowers... that I'd be happy to chip in if the company didn't want to pay (notoriously stingy).

Team leader came back into the office and we both said it to her and she said 'no no' we are not to organise anything like that. Why not I said? And she just said kept saying 'no no'.

THEN, Team leader said she had been in touch with X and had told her she needs to come back to the office as it's been 3 weeks - X had apparently been doing working from home, and some compassionate leave, and some annual leave. X asked to work from home for the time being (she lives a long way - we are doing 3 days in, 2 days wfh) but team leader said no, she has to come back properly. She even said to X that she will arrange for her to work in this horrible little office we have - that has no windows - and she can work in there on her own if she doesnt want to sit in the office with us???? I was gobsmacked. She said she has told X she needs to get signed off by a doctor or come back asap. Fair enough I know - even though managers are allowed to "use discretion" when it comes to working from home and personal circumstances - this manager likes to follow the rules to the letter. More than that though - why can't we send a card? Is that an "English" thing?? I know in Ireland there's no way nothing would have been done by now. I feel so sorry for X that she has had nothing from her work colleagues at all. I mean, am I wrong or?? Feel so bad. Have bought a card and will send it myself if team leader won't let us send a group one.

She was off for 6 weeks in the summer with medical problems, and I never asked or enquired why she was off, and when she came back she was shocked nobody knew anything

If manager had told you about her medical issues then they could have been written up by HR. This is not "cultural" thing. Attending funerals maybe, condolences maybe but not in work context.

You would be embarrassed and/or ashamed if colleagues sent you a card and some flowers? I think being embarrassed and/or ashamed is an interesting reaction. Embarrassed/ashamed that they know someone related to you died or embarrassed/ashamed that they went out of their way to show you they were thinking of you?

That’s not really my experience. What you say about communal grieving and the speed of funerals etc is all true - I’m always shocked at how small English funerals are.

But I’ve never really experienced what you describe about not even knowing or acknowledging a colleague’s bereavement. I’ve often been told that X’s mother has passed away etc and they’ll be off, and had people do whip rounds for a card or flowers.

There certainly is a broader cultural reticence to discuss death openly. I think part of it is a broader cultural thing about community generally. England is a much more urban and densely populated country and as a result people’s circles of acquaintances seems much more limited here. In Ireland when someone dies - especially rural areas - there will be dozens of people who know them or know of them. So the whole community has a stake in their loss to some extent. As a result, if you’re bereaved in Ireland it’s much more common for you to meet people in the community who will want to share a memory or some kind words about the dead person - it might be something small like how he was great on the local sports team committee, or how he loved a pint, or that time he dressed up for a Christmas parade or whatever. I think that’s just a community perspective you don’t get in larger urban and more densely populated areas, which feeds through to how different cultures treat death.

Attempts to show empathy can be very misplaced.
Tread carefully with 'empathy'.

And don't lose sight of just how sensitive this particular bereavement, as the result of murder, is.

It’s partly a cultural thing in that Mumsnet users apparently don’t like anyone knowing anything about their lives - including siblings and parents, who are considered “extended family”

Yes, because all Mumsnet users are identical, right? Surely this thread is quite a good demonstration of the fact that isn't the case?

Maybe your colleague didn't want many people knowing.

many years ago I worked with a lady who's sister was killed by an internet date, it's a close knit community where everyone knows each other's business and it was no secret but my colleague had a week or so off then came back, she wanted everyone to act normal - some acted normal, some did not.

In my experience I found it cold, closed off and almost ashamed of death in a way, like death is some unique thing they must deal with alone. Almost taboo to discuss. Its maybe the one area of Irish culture where we have less irrational shame and unhealthy coping mechanisms.

It sounds almost as though you assume that the English 'feel they must' deal with death in this way (that it is culturally imposed on us, rather than that it might be the way they choose to deal with death). But that the Irish way of dealing with death is natural, healthy and presumably not the way they feel they must behave, but just the way that all Irish people spontaneously and naturally behave.

Yet another example of a poster saying the English way is wrong and unnatural and the Irish way is right and natural.

Some of these responses are nuts. I'm not Irish, but of course this woman's work colleagues should send her a card and flowers. That's the very least they should do. I hope you don't get the impression, OP, that all English people are as callous and uncaring as some of the people responding here.

This girl is your friend but you didn't contact her when she was off for 6 weeks with medical problems? Maybe you think you are her friend?

I’ve heard it explained before as in England the funeral is for the deceased person, and in Ireland the funeral is for those left behind. Funerals are a very different experience here (Ireland). The organisation I work for emails the whole organisation with details of the death of close relatives or employees. People go to co-workers family funerals.

Must be a cultural thing. I'm Irish and yeah we would send a card and if I knew her well I'd send a card or Mass card depending on religious persuasion.

Also depending on close we were I'd attend the funeral with a few work colleagues
It's not about being a gossip it's about acknowledging that something awful has happened and support is there for her if she wants it
Bet if u posted in Craicnet you would get totally different response.

I think a murder is different from a normal bereavement.Give your colleague the privacy she's asked for. There will probably be a trial of the murderer this is not someone's granny passing away.

Your post is quite identifying OP.
If this gets picked up by the press you could easily be identified in RL.

Surely you can see if she wanted you to know she would as a " friend" have told you herself?
Perhaps she prefers to keepwork/ home life separated?
I don't tell colleagues about personal things, you need to respect her wishes.
It's not all about you and how you feel.

I'm neither English nor Irish but live and work in the UK think your team leader is completely right about discussing coming back to work. I've never worked anywhere where it is normal to give 3 weeks, let alone more, of leave after a close relatives death. Surely you have a policy saying how long you are entitled to bereavement leave for? Even in the most generous places I've worked it's never been more than 5 days for close family. The problem with being 'discretionary' is it provides an opportunity for discrimination/claims of discrimination when everyone isn't treated the same.

It is very very normal to only allow whatever is in the policy for bereavement leave, but also very expected that individuals then take sick leave if they need longer - this avoids any discrimination as it is the bereaved person/their doctor deciding how long they will be off for rather than the company. It's a perfectly normal and probably the fairest way of doing things.

Regarding the card I can imagine if it was me yes I would like a card/flowers from the office and we do usually do that for bereavements in most places I've worked BUT you haven't spoken to your bereaved colleague and your team leader has so it seems very likely that in this case the decision not to tell everyone about what happened and not to contact the bereaved person has come from them, so it would be much better to respect their wishes. If the bereaved colleague wished to get in contact with you they could have. They haven't so leave it alone and when they come back take your cues from them. They might be happy to discuss it in which case you can always apologise then for not sending flowers etc. Or they might want to completely compartmentalise it and not discuss it at work at all.

Eh? The UK has huge problems with the above too? I'm not sure there is a country in the world that doesn't have those issues? I was under the impression that this thread was about attitudes towards death not who has a perfect society?

Can you not see that someone's granny or mother dying of natural causes is completely different to their sibling being murdered?

It is nothing to do with being Irish or not!

And it's not a faux pas to go to a funeral of a friend or work colleague. No funeral is "family only", they are public occasions.

TBH I don't think anyone wants flowers or a card if their brother has been murdered. They are not going to be sitting around at a wake getting pissed all night.

Not cultural , but probably a team or office thing . I work in an English office and we send flowers and cards for everything , get well , baby , retirement , birthdays etc . No way that would be put aside that way and no way a colleague would be treated that badly

Scottish here.

We're the hybrid of Irish and English reactions.

We respect the wishes of those who wish to grieve privately. We attend funerals out of respect for the dead and/or to show support for the living.

I've always been private. Whenever I've suffered a bereavement I've asked my manager to let others know. I've received the cards/flowers and they've been appreciated, of course. However, I have specifically asked that colleagues do not attend the funeral as my own friends would be there to support me. That has always been respected. On return to work, people have offered verbal condolences and gone a bit easier on me for a time to let me come to terms with my loss. Again, I have appreciated that.

Others are different. They appreciate a lot of individual cards from colleagues, and I have sent some of my own to others when I know they will appreciate it. Most share the details of the receiving mass/funeral to allow colleagues to attend.

I'm the opposite of a (as pp said) grief-vampire and always, always offered to man the office whilst others attended colleagues' family funerals. The exception was, of course, if I managed the colleague.

Nothing I ever experienced in relation to colleagues' bereavement ever came close to the relative having been murdered. This is an exceptional situation where I would consider every aspect to be dictated by the individual as there is fortunately, so far as I am aware, no cultural 'norm' for this.

No, the manager wouldn't be able to say anything...confidentiality

Of course they shouldn’t -unless they know her in a personal capacity and know her address, and only if the news is in the public domain. Otherwise, how would they get her address? The company can’t give it out. How would they explain how they knew?