Need advice on this possibly terrible/weak parenting decision of mine.

[KidsArt]

Really want brutal opinions pls.

DS1 is 3 years old. He can be pretty challenging, in his own world, never listens, doesn't want to play with others, and his nursery have talked about ASD.

DH doesn't work on Fridays. He takes DS1 and DS2 (18 months) swimming. They all love it.

I work from home on Fridays.

DH just couldn't get DS1 ready. He wasn't listening. Refusing to get dressed. Playing with his trains. Running away from DH. this went on for 20 mins

DH left without him. Took DS2 and just walked out. He did give DS1 warning that he would leave unless he got dressed.

DS1 lost his mind. I mean, sobbing, wailing, throwing himself at the door. "I want my daddy. Where is daddy? I want to go swimming. Why not me? Please please. Where is Daddy. I'm sorry I'm sorry"

I don't think I've ever seen him that upset. He was shaking. He got all his clothes and was trying to put his own pants on, falling over, crying, collecting his towel, trying to get out the front door, looking for the car out the window.

I made DH come back and get him.

DH thinks this the reason DS1 is the way he is. That he needed to suck it up.

Is he right?

Poor little thing. He sounded traumatised. You definitely did the right thing in my opinion.

Thanks for all your help! Just another quick example..I'm so confused!

This morning DS1 woke up in a foul mood. He came into our room at 6am and started demanding to wake up DS2 (who was sleeping soundly in his cot in his own room which is next door). I kept saying "DS1 let's go downstairs and have breakfast" but he was getting more and more irrate. Tried to kick me and shouting "wake up DS2"

DS1 is sitting on the bedroom floor refusing to move, shouting and getting aggressive if i go near him. All he wants is do is wake up DS2. I could have picked DS1 up and carried him downstairs but he would have screamed and hit me and DS2 would have woken up anyway. So instead I spent 20 mins cooling him down. Standing my ground but essentially trying tricks to get him to stay calm and go downstairs. I did it. He eventually went downstairs and DS2 remained sleeping.

But then DH said that phrase I've grown to hate "that should have been a non negotiable. He can't get to spend 30 mins dictating our morning like that"

What do this mean?? I hear it from MN too. Like I'm facilitating his behaviour by not being stronger? Does stronger mean shouting? Or physically restraining him?

Pls spell it out to me what I should do. Don't say "make him go downstairs". It's like the words I'm saying don't mean anything to him. Tell me in literal terms what you would do differently.

Caveat that I don’t have ND children. I think:

(1) for him going downstairs seems to include bringing DS2 in a sort of rigid way that doesn’t make sense to us but for him that is the “right” way for it to happen

(2) I have found that my (NT) child at the same age was absolutely starving when he woke up and even the process of getting downstairs was too much when he was so hungry

What worked for us was having a pot of dry cereal in his room for when he woke up. It really helped avoid the hunger-related spiralling.

inwould also maybe talk (or draw pictures etc) at other times (so not in the moment when trying to avoid waking DS2) about how you don’t wake up DS2 when he is sleeping and that you and he can go downstairs together without him when that happens, to hopefully introduce this scenario into his head so his expectations are managed a bit in advance which could help with the fixed idea of you all going down together

this doesn’t answer your question of what I would have done in the moment. I would probably have done what you did.

Have you started to process for an autism assessment?

Honestly, thinking of my own (NT) DS at that age, think I’d explain firmly why we had to go down stairs then if necessary carried him downstairs if I could do it safely. I wouldn’t raise my voice at all though although I would be very stern if he hit me. If he screamed and woke DS2, that can’t be helped. But that may be completely wrong for a ND child.

I do feel for you. Have you tried giving choices, both/all of which are acceptable to you? eg DS2 needs to sleep because he's very tired, but you can choose to look at this book with me/play with this piece of lego - obviously choose two things he likes and that are to hand in the bedroom. I'd avoid arguing about going down the stairs, if you can, as that is what he is fixated against - unless this is impractical in which case it's "If we go downstairs now you can choose to do either a or b. Giving choices (all of which were acceptable to me) worked well with my ASD child as they gave him the sense of some control, so we got a lot of vegetables eaten with "would you like peas or beans with your dinner?" re your husband, he probably will only take it from a professional, not you, but setting hard and fast boundaries for a differently wired young child is just going to create endless meltdowns/tantrums and these make for a miserable home life. Non neurotypical young children just don't seem to have the same resilience for not getting what they want and getting it immediately or being told no. And most importantly, hard and fast rules won't achieve what DH wants.

OP, I feel like you want someone to tell you the one “right” way to do these things. But there isn’t a single right way- we’re all just muddling along and making parenting decisions based on our own personalities and circumstances and those of our children. Hence the wide range of answers here.

I think in your shoes I’d try to think less about whether you are getting it right in some objective sense and more about finding a functioning MO between you and your husband, so that you can work together. It’s hard when you’re coming from pretty different starting positions, as you seem to be, but it’s worth trying. Have you tried discussing it together away from DC and when you’re not stressed out?

Oh OP, your husband really isn't helping is he? You seem to get the brunt of all the shit. There's unfortunately no way for us to tell you how to deal with your DS, but your husband needs to get in the game. Rather than telling you how wrong you're doing everything, he needs to be working with you to find solutions that work for your family. In this scenario, if he was so keen on dragging your DS downstairs kicking and screaming, he should have done it, then dealt with the inevitable meltdown. But you need to have plans in place, not rigid ones, but at least a framework you can both work together with to help when your DS gets fixated or distracted so that he doesn't get stressed and neither does your husband. Definitely get your nursery or health visitor on the case for an assessment too, maybe your husband will be more understanding if you have a diagnosis and he doesn't think it's just you being too soft.
Keep doing what you think your DS needs, being 3 is hard anyway, all kids this age struggle with boundaries, it's a natural stage in gaining independence and please stop beating yourself up, we're all out here winging it, sone days we just make it look easier than others 💐

I am autistic and you did the right thing. Normal rewards and punishments don't always work with autistic kids especially if they are PDA. He will probably remember this, as I remember traumatic things like this as an adult. Now your son is getting older you all need to allow for fannying about time as I call it. With my daughter who is 10 (waiting for assessment for Autism and ADHD currently) I give her reminders about what we are doing next, how much time she has left, make the routine consistent, am mindful of sensory input, what she has done earlier that day etc. Even then she still might get moody or get the arse but mostly it works. All kids are different though. For example she was never a deathwish toddler or a runner. I also find I am more patient and better with her than her Dad is. He is part of the "everyone has labels these days" brigade and gets angry with her if he upsets her.

Is the baby normally awake when he is? What's his current special interest? Explain to him his brother needs to sleep and won't always be awake when he is. Then say "let's go downstairs and watch (insert favourite show) and have breakfast" and just keep saying it. Like you say carrying him downstairs would have woken your younger son up anyway. You are not letting him dictate your morning. Your son is a person too and autonomy is very important to autistic children.

Yes, you are being too wet.
You're teaching him that tantrums and violence he gets his own way.
He gets zero consequences from behaving like that as you give in every time.

He needs consequences every single time. It will be hard at first as you've let it go on far too long.

You don't have to shout or yell. Just pick him up and put him back in his room.
He doesn't get to sit their and pester his brother and do whatever.

Back in his room. He trashes the room, take everything out but his bed.

Do you actually say No hitting in a firm voice?
Every time he hits or kicks repeat no hitting and he get's time out.

He's 3 so 3 minutes max time out. If he sits quietly or calms down quickly you can end the time out earlier. But remember only 1 minute per year. Not too long.

No eye contact or talking. If he continues to tantrum and refuses time out then take away favorite toy, screen time, whatever is meaningful.

It'l be a rough week but he'll understand the rules and things will go much better.

Then we he has calmed down you can give hug and gently say we don't hit or kick people cause it hurts and then let it go.

You'll get to the point of giving one warning and most of the time a time out won't be needed.

Good luck.
from a Grandma

sorry haven’t RTFT, DS1 is 8 and also suspected ASD. For transitions we’ve found a digital timer really helpful, particularly getting dressed and ready or leaving somewhere fun - to the extent that leaving the park he will just get up and leave when the timer goes off now!

The other thing I’ve found helpful is separating it down to smaller chunks: time to put your top on, time to put your trousers on - always in the same order to avoid a meltdown. And being very careful with language: go put your shoes on when he needs his riding boots causes distress / tantrum whereas, “get some footwear and put it on” no problem!

And finally stop giving yourself a hard time, none of us are going to be perfect parents. Since having DS2 with a bigger gap after DS1 I’m beginning to notice and accept that DS1 was hard work and a lot of the advice I got was suited to NT children and wouldn’t work with DS1’s ‘quirks’ - it wasn’t me being a ‘bad’ parent.

Thank you @emptythelitterbox But I didn't give in? He didn't get to wake up his little brother. He did go downstairs and have his breakfast. I just didn't physically force him downstairs. Is that giving in?

Thank you @BiasedBinding I think you're definitely right I could do to plan for these moments and also to talk about them afterwards. I will talk to him today about not waking people when they're asleep. In the moment he can't hear any explanation as to why it's a no...but I can get him to listen a little bit when he's calm. He has this incredible memory. Can watch an advert once and then I hear his recite it word for word the next time it comes on telly so he remembers moments v clearly. Thank you.

do you know that there is a difference between tantrums and violence, and meltdown and overwhelm? This child's suspected ASD is a huge contributing factor regarding how he should be treated, as others in this thread with far more knowledge have also pointed out. However, a lot of children this age become explosively overwhelmed and frustrated, and it is not manipulative! They are learning how to self regulate and they won't do that healthily if the only response they ever get is being punished and rejected for expressing their feelings. I really can't stand this school of parenting that regards a small child's inability to control themselves as purposeful, malicious disruptiveness.

Yes, children need to learn appropriate ways to express themselves. They need to learn that not everything is about them, eg baby brother is still sleeping, and his rest is more important than the older brother's desire for him to wake up. But there is nothing wrong with a parent responding as OP did, by recognising their child's feelings and trying to talk about it and find a non-disruptive solution. I respect a parent who puts that sort of time in. It's not rewarding a tantrum, it's actually bothering to see the child as a whole human being.

no it is not! You got the exact outcome you wanted, while still acknowledging your child's thought process. I think that's nailing it to be honest. Please don't let anyone shame you for being patient and attentive with a ND 3yo who is overwhelmed.

Hun I feel your pain. I have an autistic 16 year old and a 4 year old who is so special needs it's really hard to deal with but the assessment hasn't been done. The battles are really hard, but worse is the husband thinking he knows it all and saying stuff like "be in control of him" and other crap like that. At the end of the day you can't just make a SEN child behave how you want, it's always really hard so don't feel like your doing anything wrong by being loving to your son rather than really strict. Hopefully a diagnosis will make things easier to understand but it's always hard. My 16 year old was a nightmare as a 3 and 4 year old. He smashed me in the forehead with a rock once because his dad entered a code into a gate we were using but my son had wanted to do it. Stay strong

That's pretty fair @WanderingSouls I know no one has the answer. That's why I find it baffling when people say "you can't let him act that way" I'm just confused as it makes it sound like I just need to do this or that and it would be fixed. But you're right I've got to work out what feels right for us and just keep going.

DS2 is only 18 months but honestly it's like chalk and cheese. If I ask him to go get his shoes or stop doing something...he just does it...DS2 seems keen to do the right thing and if i do need to talk sternly he reacts. Whereas DS1 couldn't really care less about my tone my voice. The only thing he hates is being left. If you walk out the room or put him alone he go absolutely mad, like beyond upset but words do nothing.

At that age with a likely ND kid, we had the same issues. We used a lot of simple instructions using the words now and then, and presenting a choice (which wasn’t really a choice)

it was key for us not to have too many instructions with too many steps, or trying to over explain stuff

so in the case with waking up his brother, it’d be something like

‘now we’re going to walk down stairs, and then find the cereal / have breakfast etc’

or

‘when we go downstairs do you want cereal or toast for breakfast?’

it seemed to help shift the rigid stuck in the circle behaviour (getting dressed and ready was a huge issue for us) i empathise with you and your dh’s response as we had similar, I used to rage at dh for not being able to see past the ‘you’re spoiling him / letting him get away with it’ etc

@KidsArt I think some people maybe extrapolate a bit too much from what would have worked with their own kids, in fact maybe we all do. But as you’ve seen, what works with one child won’t work with another. It sounds like you’re doing a very good job in difficult circumstances. Your partner doesn’t sound terribly helpful, don’t know if that’s unfair.

Ffs he is 3 years old of course he isn't going to be ready on the dot he's got no concept of time he's easily distracted because he's 3

It’s difficult isn’t it. Your approach worked today, but on a typical day(work, nursery etc) do you have 30 mins to cajole him? I really don’t know the answer, op. I think both you and your husband have had a hard time on here in different ways. Sounds hard. Wish you the best.

Yeah my husband was shut in his room with nothing but his bed as a punishment for 3yo behaviour just like emptythelitterbox suggests.

the longer term impact on him means that we won’t be taking that advice.

Just to add - and sorry if this has been said before and I missed it...once an ASD child has gone into tantrum/meltdown mode it is virtually impossible to get through to them and reason with them - they are incapable of "receiving". Hence all the advice for trying to avoid this situation. I remember a health professional coming to visit me at home about my DS when he was about 4: he came up to me and said he wanted something to eat. Before I could reply, dear professional said "not now, mummy's talking". I groaned inwardly, and 45 minutes later he was still screaming, incapable of listening ...I do like the advice about talking about the importance of sleep etc when your DS is calm; and the advice about breaking things into small steps, eg choose your tea shirt, now choose your shorts...etc. Which reminded me - has anyone mentioned looking up and using Social Stories - these can be really useful for getting messages across in a non confrontational, non head-on way when things are calm?

@WanderingSouls Yeah - he is loving towards the kids, but in tough moments isn't v helpful. Also, we are both a bit extreme - i spend ages reading thing online, posting on MN, talking to the GP - whether he doesn't do any of that but is much more "you just need good, strong, parenting with boundaries - i don't need to read anything or listen to some expert to know that" - but in the moment - it's lots of 'for god's sake' and walking out the room or the house!

Looks like you’re on totally different pages. To me it seems like he is “rules and boundaries at ANY cost”, and you’re “anything for an easier life”. You both need to meet somewhere in the middle. Would you do a parenting course together?