To not understand the nastiness that being a housewife provokes 2

[Alondra]

Apologies for making a second part to this thread but I feel strongly about this issue.

Topgub

Possibly because there aren't any benefits

Few countries have a government system caring about women and children. The majority of our governments don't care if all have to work for a pittance to pay mortgage, bills and food when children are small because average couples need both wages. A system where nursery fees are stratospheric and eating half an average wage, and worse still, because parents working full time, making an average pay to be able to survive, have few serious tax concessions. Those tax concessions go to multinationals.

It's a system that only cares about productivity attached to $. If you are an engineer with projects worth a million dollars, your salary will be minimum 15% of that money annually. If you are a carer or a parent, there is no quoted money attached to your work, so you are in a low wage or no wage at all.

A woman with two kids working full time for an average salary has not gained much from my mother’s time. Working full time, taking care of the kids when they are home and doing the lion share of housework and rarely free time at all.

With housing costs, bills and health systems collapsing, I really fear for women in the next few years. We will get the short straw as we've always done, but it'll be a plus if, at least, we don't turn on each other.

Hahah yes that's a good one

Dinosauratemydaffodils

My point is really more about the fact that our society is based on us contributing things that are really needed.

Volunteering is a difficult counter to that as it can be filling gaps the state should be paying people for, however I'd still argue its often not the most productive use of people's skills. I'd also argue that there are plenty of housewives who don't volunteer or do anything productive and instead spend their time largely engaged in leisure activities that benefit only themselves.

Volunteering is a difficult counter to that as it can be filling gaps the state should be paying people for, however I'd still argue its often not the most productive use of people's skills.

You and my ex boss both. I think it's trickier in reality though. I don't see myself ever having a career in the sense I did before dc1 was born. My original plan was to retrain as a social worker once my youngest started school but after the pandemic, that's no longer possible.

All our local Home Start volunteers for example are either sahms or retired. In an ideal world, they wouldn't be needed but right now they are. The same goes for the food bank and the community hub. Even our local preschool has a committee mostly comprised of part time or sahms.

I think there's nothing wrong being a SAHM to pre school age children. I think school age up is bordering on dodgy men don't have to stay married. They can divorce at any moment they wish , spousal maintenance isn't paid forever judges prefer a clean break. Effectively the house wifes living standards will severely reduce. I work as a HCP so not a capitalist job. I feel secure and safe earning my own money. I really enjoyed having DD at home and I now enjoy working.

@Autumndays123 this, 100% 👏🏼

Great post! And also to add that people should not make assumptions about a woman's reasons for either working or staying at home. People have the right to choose and for some people the choice is based on necessity, some it isn't, it doesn't make them any less than anyone else. There is no 'superior' option because there are big pros and cons for both options! Once we stop trying to feel superior over other people for our own choices versus other people's choices then we might achieve something more useful!

To add the real question is...why don't men appear to have this working parent/staying at home parent conundrum? Perhaps there needs to be a separate thread for this question!

@Purplefoxes

What are the big pros and cons for each option?

Men don't have this conundrum because they haven't been conditioned to feel conflicted about working

Ridiculous what you have to tell yourselves because you can't fathom that other women and men want and prioritise different things out of life. You both have dim views of women and of men which is quite sad.

Who feels conflicted? You clearly want to work. I clearly don't want to work. PP fall into either of those camps. It seems like we are all pretty clear on what we want to me

YANBU - yes, it has to be jealousy. I am old and I grew up when most mothers whose husbands could just about afford for them not to work were housewives (my father didn't want my mother to work so we lived in quite straitened circumstances but she was always at home for all of us). Also, there were not so many job opportunities for mothers in the 1950s as many of the jobs some of them had been working in during the war were ended when the men returned and needed them back. I remember watching my mother getting through her day and looking after us all (my father worked from home most of the time but did 12+ hour days so couldn't help) and deciding I never wanted to be a mother/housewife as it was far too hard work and you hardly ever got to sit down.

@AMorningstar

Now you're just being completely disingenuous

@mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork

Sorry, what do you think is jealousy?

No I'm not.

Also you'll find plenty of men saying they wish they could be SAHDs bur either can't afford it or feel they'll be made fun of/not fit in with other patents etc. That's wrong and should change. Anyone should be able to be SAHP.

@AMorningstar

Yes you are

As a society we condition girls and women into thinking that if anyone should be the sahp it should be them.

And we condition boys and men jnto thinking if anyone should be the earner/provider it should be them

People don't conform to gender stereotypes by chance.

It's advertised to them their whole lives. Just like consumerist propaganda is.

How exactly do you propose we change things to allow more men to be sahps while thinking that women have a biological need and right to be? And shouldn't even have to share at all?

Not going to list out all the pros and cons as there are many and most are obvious @Topgub but a few are as follows:

Working parent
Pro
Keep earning potential and future pension

Con
May need to pay for holiday/after school care and spend less time with kids

Stay at home parent

Pro spend more time with kids and can provide holiday/after-school care

Con loss of income, less future pension.

Do you think it's just to do with male conditioning? I work full time as does my husband who earns less than me. We could survive on just my salary He's never come to me to ask if he can look after our son full time? It's never been mentioned..does anyone know any stay at home dads?

Realise I have worked that wrong as we both look after our son full time technically! I mean he has never asked to be a stay at home dad.

Do you ever consider it the other way around - that some of these roles came about because people naturally gravitated to them?

By removing judgement. It should be okay to be the "odd one out". It's okay if 80% of men choose to work and only 20% want to be SAHP, and vice versa. We don't need it to be exactly 50/50 we just need people to not be shitheads to anyone who doesn't fit the norm.

@Purplefoxes

Did you ever ask him if he wanted to be a sahd?

If not, why not.

And yes.

I think its entirely down to conditioning.

My husbands dad was a SAHP. His mother has always worked full time, still does. His dad enjoyed it apparently.

Very arrogant to assume other people are conditioned into it rather than just...different people wanting different things.

@AMorningstar

But that won't work.

Because its not just judgement that's the barrier, according to you.

According to you a majority of women want to be sahms.

So how can their ohs be sahds?

@AMorningstar

I'd believe that if it wasn't entirely gendered

It's not arrogant. It's basic facts

And if I'm arrogant, so are you.

🤷‍♀️

How individual couples choose to iron out any disagreement about both parties wanting to do one role is up to them? I'd suggest the SAHP men partner up with the more career oriented women but its obviously more nuanced, people don't pick partners solely based on that lol.

I agree with your posts but this is the point I raised earlier. Men have the same issues with social judgementalism as women wrt to staying at home & working
If a man is a SAHD he will get lots of put-down comments from other men who are seeking to promote their life choices over others. It's a human competition/insecurity thing and is not gender specific.