To wonder why some men have children at all?

[TheRossatron]

When they have absolutely zero interest in family life? I see it on here constantly. I don't mean men who accidentally get someone pregnant and shirk responsibility... I mean men who enter into a relationship with a woman, propose, get married and try for babies... then end up with two toddlers and a presumption that they can dump everything onto the wife and fuck off out all weekend every weekend to play golf? Or get smashed in the pub? Or sit playing video games all day? I myself loathe the thought of family life - I just wouldn't want to be tied to anyone and would feel suffocated and resentful. So why on earth don't they just stay single and childless?! Baffles me.

(Disclaimer - I know there are loads of really good men out there!)

I suppose we don't understand because we always think we can do it differently. Human beings are very bad at learning from others' experience. We always think "It won't happen to me".
I wouldn't have had kids with a useless man though. Mine wasn't a great partner - and I knew I'd have to do most of it - but I've managed that relationship. The kids have had a good father. He was a good man and the kids were happy.

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune

each and every month I was totally in charge of my own fertility, in charge of who I slept with, in charge of what contraception I/we used, in charge of whether or not to abstain during fertile periods, in charge of what happened should an unwanted pregnancy happen.

No one else controlled these circumstances for me and in no way, shape or form would I have proceeded with a pregnancy with some loser, user, abuser, addict, unemployable, spendthrift, man-child, disinterested or fickle man, no matter how attractive, how good in bed or how much "in love" I was.

Frankly, it IS that black and white for me, and if we counseled/educated young women as we should, about the huge toll to them, to their offspring and to society of reproducing with shit men, maybe more of them would take charge and be discriminating about their sperm donors.

I agree with you 100%

It was black and white for me.

Another problem is staying in a relationship with a shitty partner then accidentally getting pregnant, so you're then tied to the idiot for life.

If you split up, you then have to coparent and face the possibility that he'll end up with another woman, who becomes stepmum to your kids and resents their very existence.

It often amazes me that people can put more thought into where they go on holiday, than they do creating a new life.

I think they should educate young people as part of the national curriculum .... so that from a young age, some of this sticks.

I know someone who told me, her daughter's school had a session on abuse and abusive relationships, then she came home and told her mum what she learned in school and that she (mum) was being abused by her dad.

That was finally what made her leave (even though she already knew it was an abusive relationship) but she had 5 kids at this point.

A conversation with my DP earlier this week summed it up. We are childfree by choice, though time is not on my side (I'm 36). However he said to me "if you change your mind and say you want a child, I would do it for you". This is despite the fact he knows full well what it's like to grow up with an absent, uncommitted father. While he is a wonderful man and partner, I know that neither of us is cut out to be parents, but he has shown he will waver on this if I'm the one pushing for us to change our situation. I am sure many men are the same.

Or to put it another way they’ll have kids with any old piece of shit rather than risk not having kids at all?

Look I never got accidentally pregnant, despite at times not being "in charge of my own fertility, in charge of who I slept with, etc etc". But is it really that hard to have a bit of empathy for women who do end up in shit situations? They end up there - precisely as you say - because of what they have learned about relationships from when they are younger/and even those they see at present.

And yes, it should be better, and women should be counselled/educated on what is a decent expectation for life - I agree with you 100% on that. But at present, they are not, and that is exactly what leads to suddenly realising (despite it being painfully obvious in hindsight; "well I always knew he was shit at xyz and I wasn't particularly happy, but thought that was normal/would improve/whatever") that you have fucked up the last ten years. projecting much, Beyond?

Another yes from me btw that it is black/white that women (and men, it applies to both) should be and are not taught - from life, or education - the realities of childbearing/rearing. People of both sexes should clearly understand that not having children is an option and they are not just "what comes next". And for my personal bugbear, risks should be highlighted more. OT but the minimisation of the risks of pregnancy imo contributes hugely towards the current normalisation of surrogacy (underlining unintentional here, I just can't get rid of it!)

Better to regret missing the chance to have kids than to perpetuate social ills by rearing hapless children in toxic, dysfunctional and abusive environments. SO incredibly selfish to produce offspring in these horrible circumstances.

And the kids will go on to create the same messes, odds are.

If only people in perfect circumstances had kids; hardly anybody would.

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune Couldn’t agree more. Someone on another thread said that around 30% of people just shouldn’t breed!
She’s not wrong!

For me it’s been the opposite experience - DH really wanted kids, I wasn’t that fussed. We went on to have DC after he persuaded me and I’m so very glad we did - it’s been the best thing I’ve ever done. And DH is a great, very involved dad.

I’m just one example but knowing all my friends as I do, all their DHs are very hands on, loving dads too.

Yes, another here who it literally is that black and white for. It seems like some people want to absolve women of any personal responsibility at all. Don’t get me wrong, society absolutely enables and even encourages shit, misogynist attitudes in men and it certainly isn’t women’s fault they’re shit, but women have a choice about the men they choose to associate with.

I’ve been in toxic relationships and hung onto abusive men, and I knew something was wrong that I seemed to keep being attracted to types like that, so I got therapy and worked on myself. Guess what, the root was having a shit father! But I made an active choice not to end up in the same position as my mum.

Ive always instinctively known I don’t want kids and I know several other women who feel the same, a couple of whom dumped their male partners because the men did want kids. We’re not that rare. Going on mumsnet only strengthened my feelings about not having them because you can come on here and read all day about the horrible realities of parenting (and the good parts wouldn’t make the bad worth it for me). As for doing it because you’re supposed to… I actually met a man recently who said this, and admitted he hates being a father. I have absolutely no respect or sympathy for anyone, man or woman, who had kids simply because that’s what “you’re meant to do”. I feel for the poor kids in that situation.

@Cuppasoupmonster there's a great wide spectrum between shit circumstances and perfect circumstances and you are being purposefully obtuse.

To be fair, if young men and women were properly educated on what it takes to raise a child we’d die out as a species. It is not an alluring prospect at all but you just close your eyes and cross your fingers. You don’t want to know too much, much like not looking inside a supermarket sandwich or knowing what’s in your burger.

If only people in perfect circumstances had kids; hardly anybody would.

a) if only people would spend their teens and 20s becoming educated, self-aware and financially solvent, THEN have kids, the circumstances of most births would be orders of magnitude better

b) hardly anyone producing children would be a massive boon to this poor planet and all of the other species we're killing off each and every day.

The idea that it's better to produce offspring in sub-par situations than to do without is just ... words fail me.

a) why do you get to dictate what ‘educated’ and ‘self aware’ is? You sound incredibly patronising.

b) then I hope you don’t expect there to be anyone to cut your hair, take your bins out or nurse you when you’re elderly 🤷🏼‍♀️

b) then I hope you don’t expect there to be anyone to cut your hair, take your bins out or nurse you when you’re elderly 🤷🏼‍♀️

@Cuppasoupmonster are you for real? 😂😂🤡

Are you trying to argue that it's ok for kids to grow up in broken homes, in poverty, with shit fathers etc just because we need to keep feeding the capitalist machine with cheap labour?

Do you hear yourself @Cuppasoupmonster ??

I have a friend who's husband is a chocolate teapot of a dad, she makes excuses for him, he promised to change for their second it lasted all of 3 weeks til he went back to being lazy doing what he wanted at weekends without a second thought for his wife now with 2 kids.
She still makes excuses for him.

I don't think hobbies before children is a give away my DH is a amazing dad and does outdoor sports. But we communicate and share it equally so we both get time and it's gone from every weekend to once a month/a fortnight depending on conditions.

b) then I hope you don’t expect there to be anyone to cut your hair, take your bins out or nurse you when you’re elderly 🤷🏼‍♀️

Small price to pay for saving the planet for other species. Are you aware of the insect-die off, what is happening to marine life and other depradations caused by human overpopulation? The elephants and rhinos? The bees?

Yes I am Zelda. Do you have children?

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune

The idea that it's better to produce offspring in sub-par situations than to do without is just ... words fail me

I know. Very sad, that some women KNOWINGLY choose fools as fathers for their children, then expect some kind of sympathy.

As they say, if you play stupid games, you'll win stupid prizes. It's not rocket science. It's basic common sense such unfortunately doesn't seem that common among so many.

@Cuppasoupmonster
then I hope you don’t expect there to be anyone to cut your hair, take your bins out or nurse you when you’re elderly 🤷🏼‍♀️

Are you suggesting that hairdressers, refuse collectors or care staff CANNOT be good parents?

This isn't a matter of wealth.

Would you advise your daughter to have children with any old piece of shit rather than risk not having them at all?

Are you suggesting that hairdressers, refuse collectors or care staff CANNOT be good parents?

No, I was suggesting a dramatically falling birth rate would result in a lack of essential services. Where did you get that from?

But how will they be happy when deep down the husband knows his heart isn't in

Most people don’t care / can ignore this kind of stuff.
And this goes to all things in life.
Humans fundamentally selfish creatures who want what they want and don’t care how it affects others or what is happening deep down.

We're hardly dying out as a species...almost 8 billion people now, projected to be 10 billion in the next few decades. Many would argue that a falling birthrate is a positive thing, we have limited resources to go around.

We have no idea if that’s how we lived, but it’s pretty ridiculous (and all about the male ego) to think women didn’t hunt. We’d be the only animal on earth where the female was incapable of feeding herself.