To wonder why some men have children at all?

[TheRossatron]

When they have absolutely zero interest in family life? I see it on here constantly. I don't mean men who accidentally get someone pregnant and shirk responsibility... I mean men who enter into a relationship with a woman, propose, get married and try for babies... then end up with two toddlers and a presumption that they can dump everything onto the wife and fuck off out all weekend every weekend to play golf? Or get smashed in the pub? Or sit playing video games all day? I myself loathe the thought of family life - I just wouldn't want to be tied to anyone and would feel suffocated and resentful. So why on earth don't they just stay single and childless?! Baffles me.

(Disclaimer - I know there are loads of really good men out there!)

I think the posters taking offence here are the ones who have crap partners/fathers. So they are in defence mode.

At some point, you have to take responsibility for the position you find yourself in.

There was a recent post, where a woman said after she had one child, her partner sat in business class when they went in holiday leaving her and the baby in economy.

She went on to have more kids wish him and he did the same... he would also stay in a luxury hotel in the holiday and she was dumped in lower level accommodation with the kids...

I'd like to know in what way this was not her fault? With one baby, she may not have known what he was like... but to continue to have more kids, with such a selfish specimen of a human being, was foolish... and that's the least offensive way to put it.

Nobody is mystic Meg, but I shake my head in disbelief, when I see second wives or partners complaining he's useless yet she had a front row seat to see how useless he was with his other kids.

All this nonsense about let's be gentle... why? No, let's highlight the unwise decisions that a lot of women make (when they have enough information to do better), so hopefully, other women might just read and learn that if he's a shit partner and is lazy around the house before kids, it's not rocket science to conclude he won't be a good dad.

Knowledge is power, but if you still make foolish decisions, when you have the knowledge..... then you have to deal with the consequences of those decisions.

Yeah because a woman getting pregnant is NOTHING to do with the man IS it? And women DEMAND children as their right. Come off it!

What utter rot some people are speaking on here.

Genuinely wasn't trying to "get a rise" out of anyone I'm a good person. I started the thread because most days I come on here and am left surprised that so many men seem to have children without really considering the consequences. Today it was triggered by a woman with four kids to a man who expects to piss off out every single weekend to go fishing. Now if someone wants to spend all day fishing, golfing, gaming, wanking, taking photographs of aeroplanes or picking his nose that's absolutely fine - be as selfish as you like if you only have yourself to cover - but DON'T have four children if that's the amount of freedom you want!!

I only commented on the other issue when other posters started referring to it. If you have a piece of shit partner who is financially unstable, unhelpful and living a basically self serving or unsavoury life... DON'T wonder why your life is even harder when you create a child with him in the hope he might "grow up" when the child is born. He won't - and to think otherwise is plain naivety.

Also if a man is considered non commital for admitting he doesn't want children, who gives a fuck? I've been called selfish before for not having children. So what? Yes I'm very selfish and I want my time and space to be my own and I have no problem admitting that... hence why I chose (and I knew this when I was five years old myself) not to be a Mother and bring an innocent child into the world who I really couldn't be arsed with!

Lots of reasons, but I suspect the main one for men (and women) is that most people don't really think about it all that much.

I mean, they think about TTC and stopping contraception and maybe buying a house big enough for a couple of children, but I doubt many couples sit down and actually figure out the practical, financial and emotional impact of kids.

DH and I both thought we wanted kids but actually, we're both quite selfish people and we'd be rubbish parents. I love my alone time and routines, and couldn't cope with the noise and unpredictability of kids. DH loves his hobbies which take him out of the house for 6-7 hours at a time - hardly compatible with young children and he'd be miserable if he had to give them up, even if it was only temporary. We're both grumpy if we don't have enough sleep, neither of us do well being woken in the night and we're both self-employed in careers that aren't compatible with last minute days off or lots of sick days.

As it is, we're comfortably off. We can afford hobbies and pets. We can travel. We're not worrying about uniforms and new shoes and nursery fees and who will cover the next sick day because Josie has yet another stomach bug. All those things add a lot of stress to otherwise good relationships and many marriages don't survive the sheer exhaustion of children.

I think if we'd had children we wouldn't be together anymore.

The thing is there really isn't a solution to any of this and everyone's making very good points because we genuinely don't know how it will pan out. Many women who hitherto married 'good' men can still find themselves at the coal face solo whilst their husband is all but absent in family life. Every weekend we have multiple threads along these lines.

You think they are looking for a mother to their children when they are really looking for a mother to their inner child

Yes I'm very selfish and I want my time and space to be my own and I have no problem admitting that... hence why I chose (and I knew this when I was five years old myself) not to be a Mother and bring an innocent child into thTe world who I really couldn't be arsed with!

This view though is perhaps influenced by knowing that it would be much harder for you as the female parent to palm your child off onto another parent, and therefore they would probably suffer from your inattention. I think many men are happy to have a child even if they don't want to be particularly involved because they don't necessarily think that the child will miss out - they just think someone else will do the work!

Farcical isn't it? And also bastard offensive. And disgustingly misogynist. A truly horrible thread. Apparently... 'women have only themselves to blame if they have children with a SHIT husband/partner, and she probably forced him into it anyway, because men don't want children really. She probably didn't take her pill, or pierced the condom, so it serves her fucking right if he fucks off and leaves.'

Some mumsnet posters never fail to deliver! Some posts on here are just nasty.

I am also OUT. Disgusting offensive misogynistic vile thread.

@TheRossatron · Today 19:23

Genuinely wasn't trying to "get a rise" out of anyone I'm a good person. I started the thread because most days I come on here and am left surprised that so many men seem to have children without really considering the consequences.

I totally agree with everything you've said... the people who accuse you of trying to get a rise are likely the ones with these substandard partners as fathers of their kids, so they feel embarrassed at their own poor choices.

I see posts like you said...

DH doesn't spend time with us. I do all the cooking, cleaning, school runs, laundry... you name it... then she drops I'm expecting DC4^ and I just think why would you still be with this idiot, much less have more kids with him.

It's the very definition of insanity.... doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Yes, we get it, you don't approve of the thread. Feel free to scroll on by... plenty of things are discussed on MN you're not going to agree with all of them.

Again demonstrating a piss poor ability to comprehend written text.

no one has said what you’ve written.

people have said, many men if left to it wouldn’t be too fussed about having kids and many do because it’s either expected as part of marriage or because they want to keep their wives happy.

That women who decide to procreate with a partner who was shit before having kids then she needs to bear some of the blame when he doesn’t magically change when a baby comes into their life

That women who continue to have children with a man who has proven himself to be a terrible father, have themselves alone to blame for the fall out that they suffer with.

Some posters, like yourself, seem to think women have 0 responsibility to make good choices. Yes men shouldn’t be shit, but when you actively ignore red flags that then becomes a you issue.

I agree with this, I often thought I would have kids if it meant I could be a dad - you know, do the bare minimum and be hailed a hero and leave the grunt work to someone else.

I was married over 15 years, happily I thought He pushed for children and his family were religious.

As soon as the kids were born he kicked off as he was no longer the centre of attention. When they were diagnosed with additional needs that was it.... he was off. I often wonder how his family justifies him being a deadbeat father. None of them have had any contact in donkeys years but are indignant when anyone calls them out on it. I often wonder what their local catholic church thinks of them abandoning disabled kids. They simply have no shame.

Some/most men are selfish pricks enabled by their pathetic mothers.

I think a lot of people are missing the point that came out of the opening post and I question their intelligence tbh.

First of the issue, of why men chose to become dads, then opt out of family life.

The additional point from another poster (not the OP), was questioning why women chose to be with these men.

This isn't about accidental pregnancies...or men who were once good and became useless. That is a very different situation.

Even in these situations, why continue having more planned babies with him and complaining.

It's about women who are in crap relationships BEFORE getting pregnant and actively TTC, with a man, who based on the evidence in front of them, will not make a good father.

I agree with the pp who said men want to cherry pick their lives: easy sex, laundry and dishes done, emotional support that being with a woman gets a man.

The dcs that come along are unintended consequences of the good bits they like.

Who wouldn't want to be a Disney dad given half the chance??

I think people can surprise you. I think Dh was surprised at how badly I adjusted to motherhood (thankfully he’s delighted to be a dad so takes the lead on a lot of the hands on parenting stuff whenever he is able to) so I can believe that men who looked like they may have been good prospects turn out otherwise. It’s just that most women don’t opt out completely. I find it an utter soul destroying grind most days and I still get up in the morning with a fresh start mentality and I try and I try again. Men who can’t be bothered have less conscience about leaving in soul if not body. It’s weak and childish.

In my experience women who continue to have more kids want their dc to have a sibling and want them to have the same dad. I said I would be stopping at 1 and DH never questioned it because he knows it would be the wrong choice for me/us. So what I don’t get is the men agreeing to another child they have no interest in. And lets be honest if they really can’t be arsed with kids the snip or insisting on condoms is always open to them.

I do think if you have a second + with someone who has terrible form as a parent then thats on you (in the absence of abuse or coercion of course ). You full well already know that you will be bearing the brunt of child rearing. The first one I think no-one really knows until you do it how anyone will manage.

I don't think it is that weird a decision to have second, third, whatever children with someone who has shown themselves to be a shit dad with the first.

He's a known quantity, isn't he. He might be shit, but at least you know he is shit. You could leave him and unintentionally end up with someone equally as shit. Sunk cost fallacy too, innit.

It isn't but I appreciate your reading my post. It's influenced by massive self awareness. I like my quiet, organised home, I like not being bothered by people and I suffer badly with misophonia. I'm a very intolerant, short tempered person and I need a lot of personal space to have any kind of inner calm. When you have a child EVERYTHING in your life is (or should be if you're responsible) rolled into a little ball and handed to someone else. It will be at least three years before you can even eat a meal in peace. For so many men to think "fuck it, she wants a kid so might as well just roll with it" completely astounds me.

If a man is a shit father, it is HIS fault for being shit. And no one else's. Women who are left picking up all the pieces and doing all the work of two are fucking heroes, not feckless slags who should be berated.

There's nothing heroic about choosing an idiot, who showed that he was idiot BEFORE having a child with him.

You wouldn't buy a car that you knew always broke down, so why would you do something so much more important, like bring a child into the world, with a man who has shown you his true colours.

In the very wise words of the great Maya Angelou, when someone shows you who they are, believe them

I can think of only one relationship I know where the man was desperate for children and the woman’s as lukewarm about it.

I know many more the other way round. In all cases the man took ‘persuading’ or the baby was a ‘happy accident’ aka she became ‘forgetful’ with her pill.

Men just don’t have the maternal instincts and brood ones that women have, on the whole. I think a lot of women think, better children with a deadbeat dad than no children at all.

I also think the same of women who are lukewarm about parenthood to be honest and just "give it a go" because the husband wants a child. Marriage you can always divorce, houses can be sold, relationships dissolve, you can quit the wrong job. Other than adoption (which most people don't resort to) parenthood is it. There is no way back.

I don't think it is that weird a decision to have second, third, whatever children with someone who has shown themselves to be a shit dad with the first.

He's a known quantity, isn't he. He might be shit, but at least you know he is shit. You could leave him and unintentionally end up with someone equally as shit. Sunk cost fallacy too, innit.

And this right here says it all... thinking you can't do better or get a better man.

At least one of the people I know, who did this had decided she was going to leave him after the second child.

She didn't want two or more dads but she was happy to be a single parent...after child number 2, he didn't improve (he wasn't even as bad as most of the ones I read on here) so she ended the relationship.

No point in staying and complaining.

A huge number of men are ambivalent, at best, about becoming fathers but agree to do so for one very simple reason : Because the women they love are desperate to be mothers, for reasons which are both biological and social, and their husbands & partners want them to be happy.

To be clear, I'm not agreeing with it or suggesting it to anyone as a way forward - merely saying it is an understandable decision to me.

I understand where you're coming from, but lots of men with children do eat all their meals in peace and have quite a lot of personal space to do their hobbies etc (although perhaps not the quiet organised home!). They have that because someone else is seeing to the children. Maybe not you yourself, but lots of women wouldn't particularly mind having kids in these circumstances.