To wonder why some men have children at all?

[TheRossatron]

When they have absolutely zero interest in family life? I see it on here constantly. I don't mean men who accidentally get someone pregnant and shirk responsibility... I mean men who enter into a relationship with a woman, propose, get married and try for babies... then end up with two toddlers and a presumption that they can dump everything onto the wife and fuck off out all weekend every weekend to play golf? Or get smashed in the pub? Or sit playing video games all day? I myself loathe the thought of family life - I just wouldn't want to be tied to anyone and would feel suffocated and resentful. So why on earth don't they just stay single and childless?! Baffles me.

(Disclaimer - I know there are loads of really good men out there!)

I honestly think that a male contraceptive pill would be the end of humanity. Well it wouldn't as governments would take measures to encourage people to have children.

I think a lot of men really could not care less whether they have children or not but because most women want them they go along with it.

Also an awful lot of women regret having them when they realise the reality of life with children. Women can't usually easily walk away and most just would not. Men don't have any such problem with it.

I do also have to agree that so many women have children with men who they know, or have a damn good idea, will be shit fathers.

So many threads when women are moaning they have 2 or more children and have to do everything while their husband do nothing. Bad enough having 1 child with them but for goodness sake why have more?

It's the men who cant seem to fathom that life has to change with an extra little human in the mix. They dont seem to realise sleepless nights will be ongoing for months and yes, even though they're working they will still be expected to do their fair share!

No, you cant just plan meals out or nights on the town at the drop of a hat, who did you think would have the baby?

I feel that's part of the issues, men just cant seem to figure out how much life will change. Whereas a woman knows she'll spend 9 months pregnant, not drinking, not partying etc. She has already made that peace.

My BIL refused to give up his friday night pub crawls, my sister had 2 kids with him yet still moaned that he went out. He ended up meeting another woman, with no kids, and having an affair. Eventually moving in with her.

We're 13 years into parenting, it's been bloody hard! But DH has been a hands on Dad all the way through thank goodness. He's probably better at it than I am as he seems to have more patience.

I see so many women who dont protect themselves from having children with drug taking, heavy drinking losers. How many threads do we read where OP says they're DH has taken cocaine, or cannabis and they know he used to take it and seem surprised that they're sitting at home with the baby and DH is off doing it again. Colour me shocked.

I think women need to take responsibility for bringing a life into the word with a waste of space, as much as men need to take responsibility for the child they created. It's not an either or scenario here.

Just as many men want children as women.

I would have agreed with the person you are disagreeing with, but then I saw a survey that supported your position. Actually, about 10% few men say they want children, but I think it was something like 70% vs 80% for women, so that's not a significant difference.

My fall-back position is, OK, maybe nearly as many men say they want children, but when you compare men who say they do with women who say they do, do both want them equally strongly, on average? Ignoring that men can't give birth, if they could do anything women do, would they be equally willing to make the same level of sacrifice? Perhaps a lot of those men are only saying they want children based on the assumption that a woman is going to be doing all the work.

I can say with authority that around 30% of people should not breed. They are unfit parents.
Society pushes people into having children selling them a lie.
Not only do these people have a child they then go on to have yet more children, often with other people.
Quite often it’s intelligent, kind, compassionate women who do not have children.
As for unsuitable men, well the fact is women have sex with men they find attractive. These men are not necessarily great father and husband material. The same applies to men. They do not think “hey let me marry and have sex with a woman who will be a committed mother.” No they just have sex with who turns them on. I also agree that a good percentage of men just go along with what these women they want to shag want. They don’t have the guts to say “No, I do not want children.”

Maybe if you’re on Mumsnet to criticise parents you should think twice before posting- you have no idea who you offend. 🤨

No-one is above criticism just because they've managed to procreate.

So if your bloke turned out to be a shit dad, you'd be fine with that and never criticise him for it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's very good reason why the happiest demographics are single childfree women, and married men.

I've had sex and relationships with a number of attractive men whom I knew would be shit fathers, so I took rigorous steps to make damn sure I didn't become pregnant by them.

It really galls me to hear women (or read them on fora such as this) complaining about the difficulties of life with some longtime waster and then add ".... and I can't work because we have 2/3/4 DC and I am trapped as a SAHM...and we're not married..." I mean, just why? do they never think of the lives their poor offspring are destined to lead?

Have all the recreational bad-boy sex you want, just for god's sake use multiple forms of birth control.

I don't think anyone, including women, know how hard it'll be until the kids are here. It's just more socially acceptable for men to be rubbish or walk away than women

I think it’s that some men genuinely do think that that’s all that’s required to be considered a ‘family man’. The family is there to meet his needs if he chooses. But mostly he’d rather bugger off to play golf and leave his wife with the kids and the household labour.

That’s what wanting kids and a family means to them.

The bar is very low for men, so it’s easy for them to find themselves surrounded by people who think the same way and reinforce what a brilliant father he is. To the extent that it’s the disgruntled wife who gets painted as a controlling shrew if she isn’t delighted with this set up.

So many women are just so desperate to have children they would have them with almost any man.

If a woman is stupid and desperate enough to have a child or even more than 1 with an utterly useless man then she deserve to be criticised and tough if she is offended.

I also agree with other posters that the number of "accidental" pregnancies is ridiculous

My friend was married to a man who was very clear he didn't want children.

She begged and begged until he gave in, but said in no uncertain terms that she shouldn't expect him to be a hands on father.

Thing is, as soon as their DD was born he simply feel in love and turned out to about as hands on as it gets. She's absolutely the apple of his eye (and about to turn 18 now so not a flash in the pan).

He still says how grateful he is that his wife "made" him agree to have a child and how much he loves her for not giving up on him.

So, it can work the other way around, though IME this is a less common scenario.

Part of it I think is just that people think it's just what you do. Get married, buy a home, have children and just live life on autopilot without really thinking about it.

The other thing I've noticed is the issue of maturity. I've known couples where the woman is ready to have children and the husband is still acting like he's in his twenties when pushing 40. Unfortunately time is in mens side when it comes to fertility and that frankly been an issue in having children at their wife's pace and not their own. Quite a few have become good fathers to a second family, whilst being shocking to their first simply imho because they finally grew the fuck up.

All that said, unless a man is pressured into having children then I think it's really hard to guess what sort of parent he will be. Men I thought would be great fathers turn out to enjoy anything and everything above being an active parent and the same in reverse.

I know blended families have their own challenges but one thing I was 100% sure of was that DH would be a good father to our children because he was such a good father to his existing child (and an effective co-parent with his ex and didn't low ball her on maintenance because he wanted his child and her mum to have a good standard of living).

@CheezePleeze No not at all, but Op doesn’t have children and is judging away anyway. I just don’t think it’s helpful to parents to get further judgment - dealing with a shit father/husband isn’t bad enough? I just think it’s in bad taste that’s all- I wouldn’t go up to Op and judge her for her life choices, I’m pretty sure all human beings get things wrong at times. I’m not saying the child itself is a mistake obviously, but how do we know for a fact who is going to be a perfect parent? I didn’t even know what I’d be like as a parent, every day is trial and error and we all learn as we go along. Is it so hard to be nice and understanding to women who are struggling? The many replies saying about women pushing men into it is in bad taste, I’m pretty sure most men are educated enough to know what to do to avoid accidental pregnancies. In life there are no guarantees and there are many parents who come across bad at times - because parenting 24/7 isn’t easy. What is easy is tut and wag your finger and say “I knew this man was no good” with evidence in hand. Even with evidence of the above, I still don’t think it’s helpful to a struggling parent. But Op did well getting a rise out of so many, job well done.

@TeapotTitties · Today 15:01

When a woman has a baby with a man who turns out to be a shit dad, she knows he's a shit dad and complains that he's a shit dad.

Would you blame her for deciding to have more children with him, or is there a way to contort yourself and really really stretch to that being 100% his fault?

I know a couple of people who have gone on to have more kids with a shit dad, because they didn't want multiple fathers for their kids.... in this case they are actively chosing a shit dad for child number 2. That is on her.

That is100% her fault. It's not her fault that he's shit, but it is absolutely HER fault, for choosing him to father yet another child with.

There was a very similar thread to this not long ago and it really annoyed me how those of us who genuinely were left in the lurch by men who had been good, reliable, sensible partners, planned children etc and were fully involved until they suddenly weren't are told that we are either lying or deluded and that there MUST have been warning signs. There really aren't sometimes.

I’m pretty sure all human beings get things wrong at times.

Yes, well, choosing a shit man for another human being's father isn't exactly a minor life error like running up credit-card debt or crashing your car into the garden wall.

It's a monumental fuck-up that is going to have ramifications for the offspring and those around him/her for the next 70-100 years. Saying "oh well, never mind, you couldn't help it" to people who choose to procreate (often repeatedly) with horrible or even lackluster partners is letting them off far too easily and just perpetuates the social ills that result from poor reproductive choices.

But rarely. Very rarely do adults do 180-degree personality / character changes.

Because there are people who just drift into things thinking they want it because everyone else including their partner wants it. They are man babies.

For example, I know a guy who was all for having kids and a SAHW. His DW was the main driver but he went with it because he loved her but now he resents being the main breadwinner. He hasn’t said anything to her as far as I know but bitches about it to DH. It’s really childish behaviour.

I just cannot believe how insensitive some people are being - is life REALLY that black and white that you can solely blame the woman for an unwanted pregnancy now? And if the woman cannot face terminating the baby, for whatever reason, again it’s ENTIRELY her fault and she should have known better, because she already knew the man was shit? Fantastic- I’m out.

It's hard to spot because there really isn't that much to do before you have kids so it's not necessarily clear when someone isn't pulling their weight. Having a baby can also introduce a power imbalance into relationships since often the woman becomes more financially dependent and it's harder to leave. Sometimes men take advantage of that. Maternity leave doesn't help either - it's too easy to say to a new mother than looking after the baby/doing the housework is her 'job' and her job alone. The problem is that this establishes a status quo that often doesn't change when she goes back to work, and some men get resentful if expected to 'help' after having quite an easy ride for the first six months or so.

I largely agree with this. As per my pp I know couples where I would have thought the man would have been a wonderful parent and it simply didn't pan out like that.

I don't blame their wives for being unable to predict that, especially when the majority were fully involved and enthusiastic in planning a pregnancy.

For some reason men who decide it's not for them seem to fairly easily detach and leave their partners to pick up the slack. Partly I assume due to a misogynistic/patriarchal society that judges men far less for their parenting than women.

I disagree. I think it's striking how many relatively equal relationships become imbalanced once children come along.

As per my pp I know couples where I would have thought the man would have been a wonderful parent and it simply didn't pan out like that.

We all know couples like that but sadly there are far too many who despite this, go on to have more than one child with the shit parent.

I disagree. I think it's striking how many relatively equal relationships become imbalanced once children come along.

Agree 100%

I have friends - a heterosexual couple- and the bloke is the epitome of a shit husband. He's a decent man, but finds parenting completely overwhelming so he buries himself in work and hobbies. He is, however, working really hard to try and change things now the DC are a bit older; he's just not good with little kids. Sadly, I think her resentment over the early years will be the death of their marriage.

Sometimes parenting is just really shit and imho the crushing responsibility is always a shock, but he should have fucking well tried harder. None of us would have foreseen this and it's tragic for everyone involved.