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Just Stop Oil's daily protests

431 replies

CatsAreAlwaysCute · 27/10/2022 16:09

Is anyone else concerned about where these daily protests will lead us?

The public are clearly getting more and more irritated by their antics. It's only a matter of time before one of the protestors are seriously injured.

I'm also worried that the government will ban certain types of protest as a result?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Liebig · 09/11/2022 18:18

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 17:32

I've often thought that if we all refused to buy petrol on an agreed date each week then the collective voice of the masses might put the frighteners on the oil companies and make them listen.
Why can't JSO and extinction rebellion organise that instead of trying to get run over all the time.

So you’re who forwards those chain e-mails.

Maybe think about it for just a few seconds and you’ll see why that won’t work.

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 18:24

Liebig · 09/11/2022 18:18

So you’re who forwards those chain e-mails.

Maybe think about it for just a few seconds and you’ll see why that won’t work.

😆no not me - I'm not the chain mail type.

Quite condescending though aren't you. Go on then - why won't it work clever clogs?

Liebig · 09/11/2022 19:09

@BerriesOnTop

You are conflating two things. One is the investment to extract fossil fuels. No one is running out of oil, natural gas or coal (or uranium for that matter). But extraction and processing needs a level of investment that hasn’t come through because of political reasons (and the big funds horrendous ESG strategies). Big oil just came through several difficult years due to the lack of demand during Covid (and the price war between Saudi and Russia). And China has the coal, but again there was a crunch for political reasons, not for supply reasons.

You’ve mentioned peak oil, but your third sentence shows that you don’t actually know what it is.

No one is going to “run out of oil”. That’s not what it means at all. What it does mean is hitting a production peak as all available efforts to increase output fail. Like has been happening since 2018, where investment with a high price market was doing well after the low points of the 2014 slump caused by the fracking market being attacked by OPEC+.

Using Rystad Energy data, you can see in the first figure attached, that out of all oil producing nations, only 23 have produced more than they were doing in 2017, while 65 have lost production regardless of investment, some quite catastrophically. In fact, since the 2018 peak, they are now a combined 5 Mbpd below it and over 7 Mbpd from their combined all time high peaks. Sixty percent of all oil production comes from the 23 gainers in this scenario.

And your ESG bogeyman isn’t the blame. This is simple geology. Has been for decades.

www.offshore-energy.biz/oil-gas-discoveries-in-2021-to-hit-lowest-level-in-75-years-rystad-says/

Remember, oil was doing gangbusters until 2020, then an unsteady 2021, but they’ve been well above average price ranges of late the past twelve months. And yet, nothing has radically changed. Because this was the state of things before the pandemic. It isn’t ESG or COVID that has caused this at all.

China indeed has the coal, as does Russia. Thing is, they don’t want to go back to a state where they literally had several thousand people die per day because of smog. Another poster mentioned particulate health matters. Apparently you’re okay with breathing toxic air. I’m not.

As for nuclear, the reason we don't have more is because it's not cost economical without massive gov't subsidies. And if we did have the number of reactors needed to replace all FF produced energy, we'd be running seriously short of fissile material within a short time too. Thorium may extend that, but doesn't drastically change the final outcome even if it worked.

Natural gas is the least dirty of the two and also the most expensive to transport without pipelines to local users, but oil is basically the premier energy source and coal is getting a resurgence because idiots like Merkel went all in on the Energiewende, or they railed against nuclear. At the end of the day, fossil fuels power the world.

But they are getting more expensive. There are no more oil deposits at $10/bbl. Those barrels have been used. All the cheap energy has gone. Exxon just made a discovery literally today in Guyana, a finding of 11 billion barrels, or less than a third of a year’s global usage. Not that that matters, given it will only be able to output at under 1 Mbpd, akin to getting the Euromillions winning ticket, but only being able to withdraw £100 a day. Useless.


Now that Big Oil has record profits that should be plowed back into extraction and refinement—and would be, if not for politicians wanting to place windfall taxes that are not going to get to the people who need money to heat their homes or turn on the lights.

Except they’re not doing that. There’s too much volatility. There’s a reason no one is building refineries, and it’s because it’s not cost economic. The price they need to charge is higher than the consumer is willing to buy as the gap has narrowed over the last few years. There is zero reason to invest in such ventures, hence dividend payouts instead.


I cannot believe you do not value modern civilisation—without it hundreds of millions of people could die due to lack of food and heating, even more would die because they can no longer protect themselves from climate-related disasters.

People like you need to be placed very very far from the levers of power. Or maybe you can just destroy Europe … as a cautionary tale.

Firstly, I never said any such thing. I said civilisation was a mistake, not that I don’t appreciate it. It’s awesome that I can get a hot shower whenever I want and watch global events from a small black mirror in the palm of my hand.

But I’m also not a moron who thinks infinity exists outside of human stupidity. Your fossil fuels will run out, sooner than you think, and even if they didn’t, other things will certainly produce the Liebig minimum: the point where the limiting factor stopping economic growth becomes very evident.

One of those outside of other minerals or water or food, is simply the energy cost of energy. The oil industry now consumer 15.5% of all net energy produced. Net energy is the only reason any kind of civilisation can exist. Subsistence farming did not produce much excessive wealth outside of the elites.

www.researchgate.net/publication/354885905_Peak_oil_and_the_low-carbon_energy_transition_A_net-energy_perspective

To quote the authors:

“… either the global energy transition takes place quickly enough, or we risk a worsening of climate change, a historical and long-term recession due to energy deficits (at least for some regions of the globe), or a combination of several of these problems.”

I’m guessing you’ve not cracked open any ecology textbooks. Are you aware of Matthew Island? You see, while you can sit there and say I’m condemning people to a less prosperous life, I’m here trying to stop people like you from putting their foot on the accelerator when all signs point to a cliff.

You either willingly want to destroy the world through climate change by embracing the most energy dense and most polluting sources of said energy, or you don’t even understand a thing about thermodynamics and what overshoot is.

Just Stop Oil's daily protests
Just Stop Oil's daily protests
Just Stop Oil's daily protests
Liebig · 09/11/2022 19:10

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 18:24

😆no not me - I'm not the chain mail type.

Quite condescending though aren't you. Go on then - why won't it work clever clogs?

I have to explain this?

Okay. You don't buy petrol this week. What are you doing next week? I bet, if you drive in a car, buying petrol.

Oh no, those poor oil companies. They go a week with fewer sales, then get a bumper sales week after it. Genius plan.

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 19:18

Liebig · 09/11/2022 19:10

I have to explain this?

Okay. You don't buy petrol this week. What are you doing next week? I bet, if you drive in a car, buying petrol.

Oh no, those poor oil companies. They go a week with fewer sales, then get a bumper sales week after it. Genius plan.

Oh I seeeeeee - you assumed the date for staying away from petrol station was about purchasing less petrol?

No. You think in very simplistic ways.

It would purely be an en masse show of support from people who want to see a change in how we power our vehicles in order to reduce our impact on climate and environment. Of course it would only send a message if it were regular and in vast numbers. Otherwise it would be a total waste of time.
I'd have a hydrogen car (or whatever the best equivalent is) right now if they were sustainable, available and affordable.

Liebig · 09/11/2022 19:31

I didn't assume that, because:

"I've often thought that if we all refused to buy petrol on an agreed date each week..."

You literally said that.

So now you've moved the goalposts, you meant to say "let's just use less petrol". I mean, that's kinda what I've been saying anyway. But given you still need to use fossil fuels to build out any such infrastructure replacement, it won't change anything any time soon.

That's where the energy trap comes in. We need a certain amount of fossil fuels, x, to keep the lights on. We also need to dedicate a proportion to building the replacement infrastructure for when the FFs run out, y. This all comes from a total energy production of z which also has the excess we use for discretionary stuff, like education, leisure, healthcare, military.

If x is approaching z, then that means y can only be satisfied by either growing z or cutting back on the requirements of x and/or y. And decline is ongoing while this is happening, so the longer this is postponed, the harsher the correction.

And unlike climate change emissions targets which we keep putting off year on year, this will be forced on us. Nature does not offer overdraft facilities: you either have the energy or you don't.

Liebig · 09/11/2022 19:35

By the way, there is nothing sustainable about car culture. People spent a lot of mental energy thinking of how best to keep shafting the environment and making of societies shittier by perpetuating dumb car brain thinking. The sooner the car dies out, the better.

Now I await someone to strawman that statement by saying I want everyone to have stillbirths and suffer cholera outbreaks or some dumb shit.

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 20:11

You're trying to twist what I said now.

I have not changed the goalposts - you just did not understand what I was suggesting.

Oh well.

Liebig · 09/11/2022 20:14

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 20:11

You're trying to twist what I said now.

I have not changed the goalposts - you just did not understand what I was suggesting.

Oh well.

You said we should agree not to buy petrol on a particular date in unison. Unless you’re telling everyone or STOP buying petrol AT ALL henceforth, it’s meaningless.

Words are hard.

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 20:57

Liebig · 09/11/2022 20:14

You said we should agree not to buy petrol on a particular date in unison. Unless you’re telling everyone or STOP buying petrol AT ALL henceforth, it’s meaningless.

Words are hard.

Ok - you don't understand what I was aiming for. With an en masse staying away from petrol stations for 1 day - the intention is not to protest by buying less petrol - it's just to show, with our feet, how many people want change. A strong message. We all still need fuel at the moment - the infrastructure for fuel dependant transport can't change overnight no matter how much people shout and scream - but prolonged pressure shows we want change to happen, we want to see progress.

If you still don't understand I don't have time to explain again - children's bedtime then work.

Liebig · 09/11/2022 21:21

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 20:57

Ok - you don't understand what I was aiming for. With an en masse staying away from petrol stations for 1 day - the intention is not to protest by buying less petrol - it's just to show, with our feet, how many people want change. A strong message. We all still need fuel at the moment - the infrastructure for fuel dependant transport can't change overnight no matter how much people shout and scream - but prolonged pressure shows we want change to happen, we want to see progress.

If you still don't understand I don't have time to explain again - children's bedtime then work.

But… they don’t care. You still need to buy fuel, and you will buy it. Who cares how many people may or may not forego buying it on any one day when they have no leverage?

It’s about as effective as protesting by climbing M25 infrastructure. If they want to make a real point that sticks, blockade refineries. They apparently are, but it doesn’t make the national news and is quickly dealt with given the national security implications. But in 2000, it brought the nation to its knees within a week.

I’m actually impressed how we’ve not had a refinery or LNG terminal targeted by terrorists and taken out. It wouldn’t be easy, yet it would be infinitely more damaging to society than shooting in a random street of strangers or bombing a concert.

Dave20 · 09/11/2022 22:58

Roger Hallam, one of the leaders of the group is in custody, along with multiple others.

He’s in Wandsworth prison. I know it’s a shit hole there too. Get the violins out ..

DdraigGoch · 09/11/2022 23:09

electricdreaming · 09/11/2022 12:19

Yes, at the time people had those views, but how many people have a negative view of the suffragettes now? Most people think they were incredibly brave, and the cause was one worth dying for. I think the same will one day be said about climate activists.

Naff all use that is when it's today's hearts and minds which need winning, not those in 100 years time.

DdraigGoch · 09/11/2022 23:14

sagalooshoe · 09/11/2022 18:24

😆no not me - I'm not the chain mail type.

Quite condescending though aren't you. Go on then - why won't it work clever clogs?

Because they know that you'll all just buy petrol tomorrow instead. You collectively actually need to severely curtail your consumption en masse.

sagalooshoe · 10/11/2022 00:15

You've misunderstood my post too.

LemonSwan · 10/11/2022 00:53

Well that was interesting. I just did a deep dive on Mr Hallams farming activities and well I won’t share my conclusions because there’s a lot of gaps and a lot of assumptions I am making. But it was an interesting journey to say the least.

BerriesOnTop · 10/11/2022 08:24

@Liebig

Of course oil production drops when the bottlenecks are at the licensing and refinery stage. We need to increase that capacity so as to increase supply.

You may think with high prices that oil majors would invest money into these projects, but they have sat on money instead because they are threatened by vagaries of political sentiment and prefer to hand it back to their shareholders. It’s safer for them.

You aren’t going to sink billions into new projects just to have the next PM or President yank your license (or not issue future ones) because it’s politically expedient for them. Refineries are getting creaky and some are downright dangerous, but where’s the support for getting new ones or updating the current ones from the government?

Should they just ignore the ‘end fossil fuels’ rhetoric and face the possibility that they will be shut down by the powers that be?

China indeed has the coal, as does Russia. Thing is, they don’t want to go back to a state where they literally had several thousand people die per day because of smog. Another poster mentioned particulate health matters. Apparently you’re okay with breathing toxic air

I have spent much of my life in China. I know what it’s like to breathe in smog in winter that comes from burning coal. I also know what it is to freeze in the winter, and you’ll absolutely take the smog when it comes down to it.

Besides, China’s solution hasn’t been to ‘stop coal’. They are doubling down on it and raising production and building new plants.

To ease air pollution, however, they were moving old plants farther away from urban areas. They tried to limit cars but that’s not as effective as just moving the coal plants to the countryside.

As for nuclear, the reason we don't have more is because it's not cost economical without massive gov't subsidies. And if we did have the number of reactors needed to replace all FF produced energy, we'd be running seriously short of fissile material within a short time too

It used to be possible. France built 50+ reactors in 15 years just after the oil shocks in the 70s. It was a smart move for them. Now it takes 15
years just to get one built. So it’s not that it can’t be done, but it seems the technical expertise and political will is not there. But it’s the only way to replace fossil fuels in electricity generation.

We have a decent supply of uranium and we haven’t even scratched the surface of fuel reprocessing. Don’t forget it can also be processed from seawater, which would add to the expense but is actually possible with today’s technology.

I’m guessing you’ve not cracked open any ecology textbooks. Are you aware of Matthew Island? You see, while you can sit there and say I’m condemning people to a less prosperous life, I’m here trying to stop people like you from putting their foot on the accelerator when all signs point to a clif

The Malthusians have been wrong time and time again. How many more times must they be proven wrong before we just stop listening to them?

Lunar270 · 10/11/2022 08:49

Tara336 · 09/11/2022 14:10

My dad is very ill. I live 120 miles away and need to use the M25 to get to my DPs home, these pricks hanging off gantries could potentially stop me reaching my parents when I'm needed. I'm just one person of many being affected by this. I care about the problems we are facing but JSO don't have my support what they are doing is alienating people.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear. But this is exactly the issue. In the grand scheme of things we're all pretty insignificant. We like to think we're not but we really are.

It's precisely because we're all pretty selfish that we're in this mess. I'm not really going to change enough and neither will anyone else. Partly because it's too late but because I'm selfish too. But I support Stop Oil because ultimately they're doing the right thing and their cause is noble.

We just don't want the inconvenience because we all think our little lives matter.

MichelleScarn · 10/11/2022 09:14

We just don't want the inconvenience because we all think our little lives matter.

Well if 'our little lives' don't matter what's the point of JSO then? Usually this is said when people mean your little lives don't matter, do what I want/say.

Tara336 · 10/11/2022 09:18

@Lunar270 my dad is dying. Potentially I may not be able to reach him and my DM because these twats hanging off gantries. But thanks for pointing out how selfish and insignificant that is on the grand scheme of things, ill bear that in mind. Hopefully you'll follow your own advice and remember your comments should you be in a similar position. Don't reply. Your comments disgust me.

Clymene · 10/11/2022 09:24

I'm so sorry @Tara336. My dad's funeral was yesterday and my sister who was doing the eulogy nearly didn't make it in time. It's just so stressful and making really hard situations much worse.

No one has managed to explain to me how ruining other people's 'little lives' will have any impact on government policy.

Devoutspoken · 10/11/2022 09:25

If there were roadworks on the m25, people would avoid it, take a different route surely?

Devoutspoken · 10/11/2022 09:27

The train network in the uk is also fairly comprehensive

Clymene · 10/11/2022 09:30

Devoutspoken · 10/11/2022 09:27

The train network in the uk is also fairly comprehensive

It would take me 5 trains, a taxi and 5 hours to do a journey that takes me 2 hours by car.

You obviously don't understand the M25.

Devoutspoken · 10/11/2022 09:34

I understand that it's a road that I would make plans to avoid if I could. I have had plans severely fucked up by train strikes, its just another mode of protest

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