Should MIL be charging her GC for staying with her?

[LifeIsGreatForUnicorns]

Background - DS got offered an apprenticeship in a different town to where we live (2 hours away by train)
As we was staying all week and most weekends an agreement was made he would pay her £400 a month.
After about 6 months, his company changed how they wanted him to work so he was wfh more (he wasn't enjoying living at MIL's as he didn't know anyone, etc) so he reverted to doing approx 2 days a week there and the rest of the time here at home
We changed the payments to £200 to me and £200 to her. Over the last 3 months, he has stayed there only 3 times and as he spends the majority of time at home, I suggested I get the money instead.
FI - when he stays at MIL in the last 3 months, she doesn't cook for him (he buys his own food) & he brings his washing home- whereas at home, he generally eats with us, his washing goes in, etc

He has had to go to up for a couple of nights this week and next (he will probably not then go for a couple of weeks and then may stay 1 or 2 nights only)

MIL has said that if he stays in future he needs to pay £25 a night to stay (no food being offered still!)

For context - she is a single pensioner on her own. There is no mortgage on her house. Last year she stayed with us for 3 months whilst having work completed on her house which we funded and took out a large amount added to our current mortgage which she now pays the interest only on (approx £125 pm) never clearing the capital as her house was in a terrible state with no proper heating and electricity upstairs etc. We did not charge her for staying with us and she made no contribution whilst here (as in she never even paid for a takeaway one night!)

AIBU to think she shouldn't charge DS when he stays occasionally?

YABU - of course she should charge and he should pay
YANBU - he's her GS so should stay free (but maybe it would be nice to get her something sometimes)

@Blueink
If MiL is on the deeds it is indeed her property
I said upthread that the deeds should be passed to DH
He can then charge her a 'reasonable market rent' but this doesn't mean she should be paying interest on his mortgage

That would be much worse for her as at present the house 2 doors along is being rented out for £2k a month and she’s only paying £125 p month (interest only)as we put the £70k for the refurbishment on our mortgage and we will pay the £70k off

Why should she pass the deeds on, if it's her property? It's either in a trust or it isn't. If it's hers, she doesn't have to give it to him.

She also doesn't necessarily have to pay rent, if it is in trust. It depends. She may have been left a life interest in the property with no need to pay rent. It's not a usual condition of a life interest that rent is payable.

Legally it's called "reasonable market rent" so she has to pay something
In this situation DH is the trustee and MiL is the settlor
Therefore MiL should've transferred the house deeds to DH
I advise you to seek legal advice

You have no idea what the trust says.

Tbh we don't have a clue if it's even in a trust at this stage. My bet is a life interest trust and the mil owns half, with the other half in trust.

It's very common for a house to be left to a child but with, for example, the wife of the decreased allowed to live in it, as a life interest, or sometimes to also sell it and move elsewhere still with the house in trust, but not have to pay any rent. The exact conditions would be set out in the will in the first instance.

Yes, you're right of course
The contents of the 'deed of trust'/ lifetime interest haven't been mentioned by the OP,.

Now you're moaning about her coming for Christmas as well, on top of everything else? Honestly, there are no words for some tight arses sometimes. Normal people speak to each other and make arrangements accordingly, you know. They are also generous at Christmas and this includes not moaning behind other people's backs.

Anyway. Your DH needs to do his homework pronto and speak to the solicitor about the will and the deeds. And you need to stop treating life like a balance sheet. I wouldn't want my family members to have your attitude in respect of everything you've discussed on here.

Exactly what I was thinking!

I accept a form of contribution previously but now she doesn’t sound very grandmotherly charging him per night with this sporadic arrangement and he buys his own food. I’d look into staying in a travel lodge if there’s one near by!

Tbh, I don’t think it’s any of your business what SHE charges him, when he stays with her. It’s his choice whether he stays there or not. She is not obliged to have him, and he is not obligated to stay there if he feels it’s too expensive
Charge him whatever you feel is appropriate for when he is living in your own house and let him fight his own battles/ make his own arrangements when he is elsewhere.

Your DH is responsible for the house and should never have charged his mother money (HIS bank interest) if she has a life interest in the house. He's charging her when the entire point of the trust was that she wasn't supposed to have to pay for a home. That is absolutely disgraceful behaviour from him, and is clearly not what his grandparents intended. You should be ashamed of him, not supporting him. Your MIL should really speak to a solicitor to understand her legal rights, and you should help her to do so.

As for the boy, I don't believe for a moment the drip feed that you're buying him £200 of food and saving him the rest, it doesn't tie in with the rest of the penny pinching going on. He'll learn soon enough that he might as well rent his own place as keep handing over money to all the relatives. Regardless, for a once per week trip, he can just get a day return on the train, a network railcard would make it cheaper.

I think that as the house 'belongs' to your DH he should probably be paying for the renovations even though she is living there, unless she asked for them? The amount she is paying is probably more than 25% of her pension. (I am assuming that her only income is her state pension) Perhaps she could pay a token amount of £50 per month, which is still a huge amount out of a single persons pension, and you should pay the rest of it. Your son obviously isn't that happy staying there, so he should pay for a Travelodge or similar when he goes away. As your son is 'earning' you can expect him to contribute living expenses while he is living with you, and what you charge him is up to you, but personally I would work out what you think it costs you to have him living at home and charge him that. He can buy his own clothes, toiletries, phone etc, you charge a percentage of fuel bills, meals if you are cooking for him, and council tax if it that needs to be paid for him. I do think that children who are earning should learn that costs need to be paid otherwise it is a horrible shock when they do leave home and very difficult to manage.

I think YABU. An agreement was reached regarding what he would pay, he has now changed the days he stays there, why wouldn’t the amount paid also change. It seems to me that she has come up with something to reflect the ad hoc nature of his stays. And it sounds like he is staying there when it is convenient for his work / apprenticeship, it is not like he is visiting her per se.

THIS ^

I think the house renovation and the staying over DGS are separate issues, and to mix them up is a bit petty. Especially as in later posts you detailed that it was actually doing up a house that is going to be yours in probably not that many more years, and NOT a favour to a vulnerable old lady.

It sounds like she'd made plans for this money, and now the deal has collapsed, but she's still being expected to randomly host DGS from time to time. Maybe she's not really physically capable of this - the care element - of having someone to stay.
Reading between the lines, it sounds like she needs more support, rather than criticism.

Any reason why your DH - her son - can't handle this particular ho-hah?

If you remove all the backstory, £25 a night to stay occasionally with a relative on limited means doesn’t sound like a bad deal. Obviously it would be nice if she could just accommodate him, but that’s not what she’s offering.

See how it goes, and if there’s future awkwardness, look at a b&b or travelodge instead.

So its actually your DH’s not hers but it is her home, yes?

Our adult sons contribute to keep but half of what you ask, £400 seems rather a lot.

Assuming MIL is laying out fuel bills I don’t actually have huge issues with her asking for a little on a small pension, but I have to ask- does she actually want him there? Does she feel she can’t say no as it’s really your DH’s house, but begrudge it after a lifetime of living alone barring a gap to raise a child?
Otherwise I suspect she’d choose to eat with him and cook for him.

I think what’s needed is a big sit down and chat but many families would never get in with that so you’ll have to work this out another way.

Also did she have a single person council tax discount that she loses when he stays with her? That’s come up loads on boards for single parents with student offspring.

I don’t know if £20 is that bad if it includes a meal, laundry etc and if his staying has lost her financial help. I hope I wouldn’t need to charge it and I don’t think my parents would but given the state of the U.K. pension she may have no choice- or she may not want him living there and be hoping he says no and stays elsewhere.

If she is on pure state pension she’d get housing benefit to cover rent so I’m not sure she can afford that £125 for interest on an investment in what is your husband’s long term ability to sell rent or occupy that house. It keeps her out of a care home but is it fair?

I could never charge any of my family to stay . If I was REALLY strapped for cash I would ask them to pick up some food for us .

In my opinion, all of this is ridiculous. MIL charging him a nightly fee is her choice, and if she’s living on limited income then I could understand somewhat. My grandparents would never charge me, but I’d always offer and especially put food and toiletries,etc. in the house or wherever I spent the night to make my stay a convenience rather than not. However, it’s not like you’re any better. You were upset with him paying her only because you’d rather get the money that he’s giving to her. As his parent and the home being “his home” as you stated, why is he required to pay that much or even pay at all. You didn’t charge her when she started for 3 months, and technically paid her to stay with you as she got renovations done to get home paid by you and DH without contributing anything towards it. If you’re in a bind then it would be ok to ask your son for help here and there, but clearly you aren’t in need of extra money. Why not let him save every penny that he can do that he can get on his own two feet and purchase his own residence?

In my opinion, all of this is ridiculous. MIL charging him a nightly fee is her choice, and if she’s living on limited income then I could understand somewhat. My grandparents would never charge me, but I’d always offer and especially put food and toiletries,etc. in the house or wherever I spent the night to make my stay a convenience rather than not. However, it’s not like you’re any better. You were upset with him paying her only because you’d rather get the money that he’s giving to her. As his parent and the home being “his home” as you stated, why is he required to pay that much or even pay at all. You didn’t charge her when she stayed for 3 months, and technically paid her to stay with you as she got renovations done to her home paid by you and DH without contributing anything towards it. If you’re in a bind then it would be ok to ask your son for help here and there, but clearly you aren’t in need of extra money. Why not let him save every penny that he can do that he can get on his own two feet and purchase his own residence?

You charge a low-income pensioner £125 a month interest on a loan which was taken out to renovate/repair a home which is held in trust for your DH? (So it's not even really her property to do what she wants with.) Fucking hell.

You are unreasonable for that alone. The words 'greedy' and 'grasping' come to mind. She's a low-income pensioner FFS!

I'm not surprised she now wants to be paid for overnight stays - it was you and your DH who made this relationship transactional.

You were upset with him paying her only because you’d rather get the money that he’s giving to her.

This. It's a pretty horrible mindset being shown here.

Grandad (MIL’s father) apparently left the property in trust when my DH was around 6 months old when he died when MIL was around 30.

What a horrible thing to do to his own daughter. He took away all her choices about where she lives for the rest of her life.

She was only 30, still young, she might have been able to move away and explore other opportunities in life if it hadn't been for her father not trusting her to own her own home.

I remember your other threads about MIL and housing and know your situation is very complicated.

What I am not seeing here is what MIL has coming in versus her outgoings. If she only has £125 per week (for instance, I don't know) coming in then her bills are going to be tight especially with the interest on the loan to you. Is she on a water meter and does he take hour long showers? What else is he adding to her costs? I also assume when he stayed with her the single exemption on council tax was removed and have you helped her to get it back?

Oh and saying how she has £6k in savings isnt that reassuring. If you have ever suffered from financial problems the fallout can leave you terrified you never have enough.

When my PILs retired we bought a house for them and never charged them rent for the 30 years they lived there, and we took care of all repairs (thinking back, they had a very good deal out of it, as they had sufficient pensions for quite a good life, but never mind, it seemed the right thing to do at the time). All they had to pay was council tax.

What led to this happening. I can't imagine just buying someone a house