Should MIL be charging her GC for staying with her?

[LifeIsGreatForUnicorns]

Background - DS got offered an apprenticeship in a different town to where we live (2 hours away by train)
As we was staying all week and most weekends an agreement was made he would pay her £400 a month.
After about 6 months, his company changed how they wanted him to work so he was wfh more (he wasn't enjoying living at MIL's as he didn't know anyone, etc) so he reverted to doing approx 2 days a week there and the rest of the time here at home
We changed the payments to £200 to me and £200 to her. Over the last 3 months, he has stayed there only 3 times and as he spends the majority of time at home, I suggested I get the money instead.
FI - when he stays at MIL in the last 3 months, she doesn't cook for him (he buys his own food) & he brings his washing home- whereas at home, he generally eats with us, his washing goes in, etc

He has had to go to up for a couple of nights this week and next (he will probably not then go for a couple of weeks and then may stay 1 or 2 nights only)

MIL has said that if he stays in future he needs to pay £25 a night to stay (no food being offered still!)

For context - she is a single pensioner on her own. There is no mortgage on her house. Last year she stayed with us for 3 months whilst having work completed on her house which we funded and took out a large amount added to our current mortgage which she now pays the interest only on (approx £125 pm) never clearing the capital as her house was in a terrible state with no proper heating and electricity upstairs etc. We did not charge her for staying with us and she made no contribution whilst here (as in she never even paid for a takeaway one night!)

AIBU to think she shouldn't charge DS when he stays occasionally?

YABU - of course she should charge and he should pay
YANBU - he's her GS so should stay free (but maybe it would be nice to get her something sometimes)

YABVU.

Your DH is getting his mum to pay the interest on an upgrade to a property held in trust for him? He’s the CF here, and if she only has the state pension this must leave her incredibly short of money

Quite

She is short of money. It is not unreasonable for your son to contribute to her expenses including power and cleaning. He presumably uses the shower, charges his gadgets, boils her kettle, dirties towels and bed linen. £25 a night seems a bit high but that is for him to negotiate with her.

Young people used to pay rent to their parents without question. I did. and I charge DC rent, not much, but some. It is important. Stops people treating the place like a hotel. Makes them think about what they spend. I was a better budgeter I think because of it when I was very young. I always seem to be better off than my contemporaries on similar wages and I am convinced it is because of my parents charging me rent and the mentality that gave me.

It all sounds very transactional
I'm not sure of the implications if MiL needed to go in a home and pay for care.?
Does DS know he is in effect accruing his own savings
I actually feel a bit sorry for your DS
Yes of course he should pay his way, but usually Grandparents love having Grandchildren around

Was she married to the person who has left your DH the house? Has anyone checked if it was legal for her to be passed over in the will? Or did the Grandad believe that women shouldn't inherit?

I agree that she shouldn't be made responsible for the interest on the loan. You should do that on the basis he stays for free, but buys his own food. Savings can be a red herring with the elderly, they'll often live in poverty to make sure that they aren't going to ever be a burden. You charge him, but expect her not to. As for working part time, a lot of women did because of what was expected in the family (care wise) and housework. Choices were limited and women were forced into not being the ones who worked full time, got mortgages etc.

Sounds like the MIL is pretty skint so any contributions to the household sound welcome.

Agree with pp if she stopped having to pay 125 (interest only) she could have the GC for free on the odd night.

Op, if you want to teach your child about money then let him take over all his bills, save his own 200 and pay you 50 quid a week for food etc.

There's only one money grabber in this story.

He's going to benefit from the improvements, he paid and I think that is reasonable. It seems likely that his mother hasn't got the money to do it.

I'm not sure about why he wouldn't know it was his house, wouldn't the executor have to inform him? Wouldn't it have stamp duty implications when he bought a house?

She might love having him around but can't afford it. Maybe she puts the heating on when he's there but she'd go to bed if she was on her own, maybe she has the hot water on more. She might not cook meals for him but he probably use brea, tea, milk. If she's only got the SRP it all adds up.

The renovations you funded were for a house your husband in theory owns?

Can't believe anyone voted YANBU

MIL has always lived in the same house all her life
MIL moved to this house when she was 2 years old with her parents. Grandma died when MIL was 17 yo. Grandad (MIL’s father) apparently left the property in trust when my DH was around 6 months old when he died when MIL was around 30.

We moved away from that area 20 years ago as my DH relocated for work. We were aware that we would be leaving her with no other family. We discussed these implications and she said that she wanted to move to the new area with us (at that time she was mid fifties) and was completely able and fit and healthy. Roll on 20+ years and she still hasn’t moved.
The trust thing only came out when wills were rewritten after a health scare … before that we didn’t have knowledge.

I do wonder how people feel that we’ve let her down as we would have paid to get renovations done earlier but didn’t know we were liable for the house? Our names are not on the deeds?

when we realised that the house (was in effect) our responsibility we made steps to ensure it was a good standard for her to live in but obviously this wasn’t cheap and we did not have enough savings so used some of the equity in our house to do hers up to provide a decent place to live.
unfortunately the house needed a full refurb to make it meet modern day standards.

I work FT along with DH to afford our mortgage whilst paying for our children’s needs/hobbies we don’t really have much spare cash (as most people don’t)

we have encouraged her to move as property is substantially cheaper in our area and said she could have loads of money in the bank that she could spend/sit on if she moved but she now refuses to do it.
we’ve even encouraged her to look for a smaller property in her own area so she could release some money but we’re interfering and she doesn’t want to move.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the trust that says she has to maintain the property . She has never paid any rent to anyone. She retired on her 60th birthday and has never worked since (15+ years)

DS earns £20k on an apprenticeship wage (he did start substantially lower but this raise happened in September) so I think he can afford the rent.

I didn’t think I was money grabbing as I was trying to encourage realistic life to my DS whilst providing a safe environment.

I think you have to remove all else besides the straight transaction for staying over at Granny's whilst working. HMRC does have an allowance rate for staying over at relatives as an expense for business - its meant to buy a gift (used to be 15 quid but maybe more now) . It sounds like Granny is short of cash so personally despite all the rest of the background I would encourage DS to pay whatever is equivalent to the allowance for overnights by HMRC and tell Granny that's what it's based on as a "fair rate" given no food etc.

As to the house it is held in trust for your DH - he is the owner not MIL despite her lifetime interest. He has invested in his own property despite not currently using it/having use of it. He needs to maintain it and should not be charging MIL for this however it is dressed up. She has no responsibility to maintain it at all. Whatever he spends will be reaped when it is sold or passed on on MIL death.

I would use the overnight rate for Granny as a way to gift a bit of cash - the pension rate is low and I doubt she has much to live on - especially with prices rising like they are.

It will be held by a Trust with DH as the beneficiary - I would look into the trust as there may be capital for maintenance as part of that. Fundamentally you are stuck with the house till she moves out due to the life interest. IF the house is sold with MIL agreement the funds would go to DH not MIL

we would have paid to get renovations done earlier

But you know now and you're still making her pay the interest.

I didn't know you were even allowed to take out a bigger mortgage on one property to improve another. I thought the whole point was that the money is to improve the value of the property you're borrowing against

you can remortgage for anything 🙄

I’m not sure how you would feel if you suddenly find out that you’re responsible for a property that you didn’t know about and have to magically find the money to do that?

We discussed the interest only cost with MIL before we even knew DS was going to stay there and she agreed to this as she knows we didn’t have any extra capacity to pay for it - bearing in mind we have our own mortgage, childcare costs for other DC, kids hobbies etc.

What exactly are the terms of the trust? As someone else said do they specify who is responsible for maintaining the property in decent condition? Is there any money also in the trust for repairs etc? Your MIL could live another 20 years, so you probably do need to know this.

I'd advise you to look at the will as it sounds like you've not seen it. Most trusts like these have the responsibility of the upkeep on the person living in it. Your MIL.

But it does create the issue of her living in a house she could not afford to upkeep, it falling into disrepair.

Forgetting the DS / payment issue, I don't think there's anything else you could have done regarding the house.

As others have said, have you actually seen the documents relating to the trust?
Do you have copies?

Why is her name on the deeds if she isn't the legal owner?

How could she sell up and move if it isn't her house and proceeds of any sale would go to your DH. It would mean he would have to buy her a new home or she would have to rent.

Thanks for all your replies.

I will speak to DH to see if he’s spoken to her about the overnight cost - I suppose I’m just peeved that she wants to charge DS now - he always used to go up and stay for a couple of days in the holidays to see other friends/ visit exhibitions etc so personally didn’t see much difference - but maybe as people have posted she feels that he/we can afford it.

I asked my own DM about it and she is shocked that MIL has said this which is why I wanted other points of view.

i know it’s petty but she always comes to us for XMAS (didn’t last year due to COVID) and always stays for at least 5 days (pre covid she would always come for her weeks summer holiday too!) and one of the kids gives up their room for her and she never contributes anything so feel we do plenty for her (that’s without us popping up to see her to cut the grass, fix shelves, etc) and we don’t expect her to pay us to visit but obviously this costs us money too. This is at the detriment of my mum who never visits me for XMAS as she’ll go to one of my other brothers (beauty of a bigger family) as we haven’t got enough room for the pair of them to stay at the same time - so feel I always bend to her as I know she doesn’t have anyone else.

in truthfulness, she has always been very tight with money and I believe, she is very jealous of anyone more successful than her - whether it’s DH who has worked hard to get where he is in his job, to her best friend being able to buy the council house she lived in and then sell to make a profit! (She can’t see that she has actually done much better by actually having a house rent free for 60+ years!)

In regards to the house, I’ll leave that one for the DH to broach with her! We have also discussed equity release with her but again she’s always been adamant that she doesn’t want to do it but I will ask DH to make enquiries where we stand legally on that as she may live another 20 years and we won’t need the money when she’s dead but the house might need a new roof and we wouldn’t be able to afford that!

Why did be bring his washing home? Does she have a washing machine? Does he do his own washing at yours?

DG shouldn’t have to pay interest on a mortgage when she is not the owner of the property. I don’t think you can have it both ways OP and would suggest the compromise is you stop expecting interests payments, but your son’s visits have no transactional implications either.

From what I understand about deed of trust( I have looked into this for myself)
MiL would need to pay a reasonable market rent to live in the property to DH BUT I believe the deeds should be passed to DH
Otherwise should MiL need care this would be paid by the sale of her asset
I would look into this and get legal advice

@uncomfortablydumb53 MIL doesn’t have an asset and why should she pay rent on a property passed directly from her DF to her DS?

The house situation sounds messed up. It's in a trust but also the deeds are in her name? Then it's not in a trust. She can get equity release if she owns it but she can't if she doesn't.
I'd start there, tbh, and find out what the reality is.
As for the rent, can he stay elsewhere instead? Easy get-out.