"How the UK became one of the poorest countries in Europe"

[user1471452428]

www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/uk-economy-disaster-degrowth-brexit/671847/

Article in The Atlantic. When people post about declining living standards, they're often shouted down- but I think it's pretty clear that it is real and here to stay.

Brexit is done. Lots of us didn’t want it, but it’s down. If you don’t accept it, you continue to make the country poorer. The problem is that we have all the bad bits of Brexit without any of the benefits, because those who voted remain will not accept the structural change that has to happen to grow the economy. Brexit should be an enabler of lower corporation tax and less regulation. Singapore on Thames or whatever you want to call it. You may not like it, but fighting against it means that you cut your nose off to spite your face. Unless the remain side accept this, the pain of Brexit is yet to be felt.

This is wishful thinking. It doesn’t work like this. We’re not going to re join like it never happened.

Yes, we can do what we like now! How wonderful.

Or not do anything. And keep reminiscing about the good old days, wishing we could re join. That’s never going to happen.

The problem with the corporate tax rate is that the cost-benefit analysis doesn't add up for the simple reason that we no longer have access to the single market.

We could always do the hokeypokey with MPs? In out, in out, shake it all about?

I have friends in other EU countries and things are not rosy almost anywhere. I guess we need to ride out this shitstorm and see how the land lies in a few years.

Would’ve thought so, a couple of things happened since 2017

😂

You can look at the GDP or GDP per capita.

But how about looking at people. There are some very rich people and a lot of people who are just about managiing.

You may earn a typical salary - but what do you get for that salary? How much of your income do you spend of housing? Food? Bills?

What's the typical lifestyle like compared to people doing similar jobs in other countries?

It's so easy to look at GDP etc - but you need to look beyond that - and at actual lives.

I know that even in the UK, there is a difference in living standards. You've only got to go and see some deprived areas or even general parts of the country to see the differences.

I live in the North of England and you don't need to go too far to see areas that are left behind. And areas that are doing fine

Top 10 Richest Countries in Europe by 2020 GNI per capita (Atlas Method, current US$ - World Bank)
Liechtenstein - $117,740
Switzerland - $84,310
Norway - $78,180
Luxembourg - $73,500
Ireland - $64,150
Denmark - $63,070
Iceland - $62,420
Sweden - $54,060
Netherlands - $51,060
Finland - $49,700

But living in countries like Switzerland is expensive.

I think people who live in Switzerland but who come on holiday to poorer countries must think it's great and so cheap (assuming they are doing ok in Switzerland)

The reason our economy grew more slowly than everyone else's after WWII was we were left financing it. We only recently finished paying the USA for joining in fgs.

But it's true, wages today are less than they were prior to the last global recession in real terms, but I don't think everybody thinks their standard of living has declined. I don't.

The pandemic hurt us badly because money was wasted like hell. We might have got vaccines quickly but it cost us. Brexit has hurt us too, but only because TM and BJ didn't get it done so we're left with stupid levels of beaurocracy when civil servants had years to sort it out with willing counterparts in European countries.

And it's all been done under the Tory party cos, Labour kept us largely out of the last global recession.

There is a good site called numbeo where you can compare cities in different countries. There are stats for average wage and also what you can get for that average wage aka local purchasing power.

Like here I am comparing London with Germany's most expensive city, Munich

www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Munich&city2=London&tracking=getDispatchComparison

I agree with this. I haven’t had much of a Pay rise in years but my standard of living has significantly improved once I moved out of my high rent flat in London to a far cheaper flat near Manchester - so grateful for remote working. People’s money are often tied up in rent or saving up for extortionate deposits.

It's like a game of Cluedo here at times with the finger pointing going on.

Whodunnit?

It was Farage on the underground with an English dictionary

It was Boris in the garden with a glass of wine

It was Truss in a press conference with nothing but a lectern

It was the immigrants invading everywhere with maroon passports

It was Putin and his willy waving over there far far away

It was China and their bat flu sent by carrier pigeon

Quality of life has definitely declined dramatically over the years. Right now it feels like we are going backwards sub standard housing, rubbish health care and a decline in public services. Really not sure how or if this can really be improved right now just feels kind of hopeless.

Hm. I’m a big fan of The Atlantic but they’re pretty cheeky saying Britain’s current problems began in the ‘global’ crash of 2008, without mentioning that the ‘global’ crash started as an American crash, created entirely by America’s failure to regulate subprime mortgages. Hmm.

Anyway. Much of the rest seems accurate. Austerity caused a lot of damage as did Brexit. The person upthread who said that Brexit was ‘only 3 years ago’ has missed the point that it was in 2016 that Britain voted to leave the EU, and it was in 2016 that banks began to move their European headquarters and key staff out of London. Banks don’t hang around waiting.

In short: post-war Britain was built on the financial sector, and when Britain voted to leave the EU, the financial sector voted with its feet and fled to places like Germany and France so they could continue trading as normal. Even the UK government has advised some UK businesses to move their head office to France because post-Brexit, because of export red tape. Sigh.

Now we’re celebratIng the pound rising to $1.16 when for much of my life it’s been more like $1.6 or $1.7.

Austerity + Brexit = poverty.

David Cameron + Boris Johnson = 🤦‍♀️
Eton should take a close look at its syllabus.

(And OP yanbu to raise the tone of AIBU!)

A nice re-run of the 1970s for us all. I was there (though very little) the first time - it did get better!

Everythings runs in cycles, or is cyclical. Me, I'd like another punt at the 1990s, when we thought John Major qualified as a terrible Prime Minister and the Happy Mondays were on the radio!

I think that mortgaged homeowners are going to have a bit of a shock if the government doesn't help out and I can't see how they can afford to. At the same time, i would say they are guaranteed to lose the next election if they don't as mortgagors apparently vote tory for some reason and are a key demographic in swing constituencies. I mean, if i had to remortgage tomorrow, my mortgage would rise by £700. My mortgage deal ends in 2024 and everyone tells me 'things would have improved by then.' Well what if they don't and it woudl be close to election season.

“We could go back” 🤣🤣🤣 France didn’t want Britain in the EU for many years because they said we’d destabilise it. They were absolutely right.

I have no doubt that Britain will rejoin, but I won’t live to see it. They’d be mad to let us back anytime soon and when they eventually do we won’t be allowed as much power in it.

its true the economy is cyclical, but surely our performance would be measured relative to other countries. they all are exposed to the same macro-economic threats- ukraine war, china zero covid strategy leading to less production, higher interest rates during to relentless money printing etc etc.. But some countries would do better than others.

We spend an extraordinary amount of money on Defence. Does anyone really want to invade us at this point? I think there is a lot of our money in arms. But who sees that money? I think that there are questions to be asked and greater justification for spending made. I know that there still is good-will between the NATO countries towards the UK as part of a defence strategy, but I'm not sure that our spending on Defence is entirely justified. Too late at night for me to try to google. I'm someone will tell me though!

*I'm sure someone

i was under the impression that there is a possibility Putin might want to lob a nuclear missile in the direction of London. Its mad but he is a mad person..

That said, Defence is a bit of a misnomer. Back in the day, Churchill was Secretary of State for War. At least he was honest about it. 😁