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Controversial murder cases (true crime documentaries) - guilty or not guilty?

227 replies

XelaM · 24/10/2022 13:14

I went down the rabbit hole of watching a number of true crime series and a few of the horrid cases have stuck in my mind. For example:

Tim Hennis - the decorated senior military officer who was convicted of the unbelievably brutal murder of the wife and two small children (5 and 3 year-old girls) of a fellow officer Gary Eastburn.

It's the "Double Jeopardy" episode on the "Death Row Stories" on Prime (free). I really can't get my head around this case and I keep thinking he is innocent. It just doesn't make sense. He was happily married with an infant daughter whom he adored, a decorated war hero who has (before and after the initial conviction) lived an absolutely picture-perfect life with not a single black mark against his character. How can this be reconciled with someone who stabbed two infant children 15 times each for apparently no reason at all other than to brutally rape and also absolutely savagely murder their mother? There was a lot of DNA at the scene, which didn't match his - male DNA under the fingernails of the victims, pubic hair, blood etc. It appears absolutely everyone was convinced this was a wrongful conviction. But then over 20 years later, the one bit of DNA that matched was the sperm inside the mother. He says they had consensual sex a few days before the murders, which also doesn't quite ring true. I really don't understand this case. It's such a tragedy for both the Eastburn and the Hennis families.

David Bain - the only survivor of the Bain family murders in NZ. I watched the "Bain Family Murders" series on Channel 4 (it's still on All 4) - not a documentary, but it's apparently very close to the real events. David was the sole survivor of the massacre of his whole family - father, mother, two sisters aged 19 and 18 and younger brother aged 14.

David was the eldest of the children at 22 and was allegedly doing his paper round when the murders took place. There was a typed note on the family computer saying "Sorry you're the only one who deserved to stay". There has been a lot debate about whether it was David or his father Robin who committed the murders. But having looked at the evidence (from what's available online) I cannot believe that David Bain is now free to walk the streets. There was so much evidence that he was the one who killed his whole family. The younger brother put up a huge fight and David could never explain the fresh injuries he sustained that morning; David's bloodied gloves were used on the gun (why would the father use gloves if he wanted to commit suicide?); David's broken glasses were found in the brother's room; the brother had fibres from David's sweater under his finger nails; David claimed to have heard his youngest sister gurgle up blood which scientifically would only have been possible if he was the killer; the way the father allegedly killed himself was almost an impossible position to recreate (and why would he use a silencer to make it even more awkward to kill himself?); he washed his clothes before calling the police and there was a bloodied finger print on the washing machine etc etc etc. It's so strange to me that his conviction was quashed based on the testimony of a few witnesses who claimed the youngest daughter was making contradictory claims that the father had abused her (I don't think that was ever proven to be true).

The Menendez brothers - the two sons of the famous Hollywood producer who murdered both their parents. Were they spoiled rich boys only after their parent's fortune or tragic victims of sexual abuse in fear for their lives? This is another Channel 4 documentary (I watched it on catch up on All 4).

Another very bizarre case. The multimillionaire Hollywood producer (who I believe produced Rambo and possibly Rocky) had the perfect Beverly Hills life with his wife and two good-looking seemingly carefree, typical "rich boys" sons. Until one day both he and his wife were brutally gunned down in their home. The murder was so brutal that the police initially thought this was a mafia hit and no one suspected the sons until the younger one stupidly confided in a crooked psychologist. The prosecution believed their only motivation was greed and money because the father was allegedly going to cut them out of his will. However, during the trial, they brought a totally unexpected defence - that they had been the victims of the most cruel sexual abuse at the hands of their father since early childhood and that they feared for their lives because they were going to expose their father. The mother apparently knew and enabled him. The defence had 51 witnesses (friends and family members) all testify what a horrible bastard the father was and it appears everyone hated him. But was he really sexually abusing his sons and were they really in fear for their lives when they killed their parents or were they just greedy rich boys after their parents' money? I'm really torn on this case. On the one hand, it's quite telling that the whole family on both sides is supporting them and that 51 witnesses all testified to say the father was an arsehole and their own evidence was very believable on the stand; however, the comments made by the elder brother after the first trial (that they managed to fool the jury) and their general behaviour and demeanour makes me think they made it up.

Anyone else interested in controversial convictions? Any opinions on either of the above cases or any other similar cases?

Apologies for the extremely long post 😬

OP posts:
squishee · 30/10/2022 07:20

Not a guilty / not guilty mystery, but Anthony Todt is another waste of space and oxygen.
As is Darrell Brooks (just found guilty on 76 counts, sentencing due).

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 30/10/2022 08:58

If you would consider a book rather than TV/podcast For The Love of Julie by Ann Ming is well worth a read and is much more focused on the victims than the killers.

Ann is the Mother of Julie Hogg, she had to fight for the police to take the disappearance of her daughter seriously and then later had to campaign to change the double jeopardy laws to secure a conviction. The double jeopardy laws are a massive problem in some of these cases (see also the Lynn Siddons case).

Another book worth a read is Arthur and George by Julian Barnes, which was dramatised on ITV starring Martin Clunes. About the real miscarriage of justice that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle helped to overturn.

poweredbyplants · 30/10/2022 10:16

squishee · 30/10/2022 07:20

Not a guilty / not guilty mystery, but Anthony Todt is another waste of space and oxygen.
As is Darrell Brooks (just found guilty on 76 counts, sentencing due).

The Todt family case was harrowing

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 30/10/2022 18:14

XelaM · 30/10/2022 05:30

Exactly. I just can't understand why Chris Watts and Jeffrey MacDonald thought getting a divorce was the less preferable option to murdering their pregnant wives and little children. Why didn't they just leave?!? Chris with his "fun" new girlfriend and Jeff to pursue his many love affairs as a bachelor. Surely they must have thought about leaving and decided to kill them all instead?! I can't understand it, especially as in neither case there was any reason as to why they couldn't just leave and continue to enjoy their lives.

As for the women who then marry them whilst they are in prison, I really have no words. If a man has been convicted of murdering his wife/family, he should not be allowed to remarry in prison. It shouldn't be allowed. Jeffrey MacDonald's wife for example is clearly a nutcase.

Life insurance money.
A divorce would cost them thousands, life insurance would give them thousands.

NorthernLights5 · 30/10/2022 20:51

I never hear of men who are attracted or obsessed with with women like this. I just don't get it.
Reportedly Jodi Arias has loads of men (and women) sending her money for commisary. She also sells her art and is living as comfortably as one can in prison. It shouldn't be allowed imo.

XelaM · 30/10/2022 23:12

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 30/10/2022 18:14

Life insurance money.
A divorce would cost them thousands, life insurance would give them thousands.

I can see Chris Watts being strapped for cash, but Jeff MacDonald was a Princeton-educated rising star doctor, a Green Beret who just bought his kids a pony. He had everything to live for even if a divorce had cost him thousands (I'm sure he spent more on criminal attorneys over the years). He was just so unbelievably arrogant that he thought he could get away with it and he very nearly did! Almost 10 years he managed to fool people with his stupid hippie story. Had he even shown a shred of care for his dead wife and kids, he probably would have got away with it.

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potniatheron · 31/10/2022 09:44

x2boys · 28/10/2022 10:35

I watched a documentrty abput Bible john ,i think Tobin was mentioned as a possibility ,i think they also said it could have been fred west as he travelled around ?

Unlikely to have been Fred West as witnesses who spoke to Bibler John in the dance halls said he had a Scottish accent. West had a very strong West Country burr. Tobin? Possibly.

creepiest thing about Bible John is all his victims were menstruating. Possibly he had a fetish, but the fact that the picked them for that really creeps me out.

x2boys · 31/10/2022 10:17

potniatheron · 31/10/2022 09:44

Unlikely to have been Fred West as witnesses who spoke to Bibler John in the dance halls said he had a Scottish accent. West had a very strong West Country burr. Tobin? Possibly.

creepiest thing about Bible John is all his victims were menstruating. Possibly he had a fetish, but the fact that the picked them for that really creeps me out.

How would he have known when he.intially picked them?

potniatheron · 31/10/2022 14:16

x2boys · 31/10/2022 10:17

How would he have known when he.intially picked them?

Sanitary wear was very different in the 60s, you wore a big heavy pad which was secured to you by a little belt which went round your waist and between your legs. So if you were a young man getting a bit hot and heavy or having a kiss and a cuddle with a young lady at a dancehall, and you had your hands on her waist or at the tops of her thighs etc, you'd be able to feel the presence of the pad and the belt holding it in place.

Toddlerteaplease · 31/10/2022 15:02

I have absolutely no doubt that Jeremy Bamber is guilty.

Toddlerteaplease · 31/10/2022 15:09

@RiftGibbon there was a drama/documentary about the Road Hill house murder a few years ago. Set off case and I still can't decide of it really was his half sister. Even though she confessed years later.

GrandTheftWalrus · 31/10/2022 15:31

Apologies for the buzzfeed link but was this a case mentioned on here?

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/drumoorhouse/richard-allen-arrested-charged-delphi-murders?origin=shp

XelaM · 31/10/2022 15:38

GrandTheftWalrus · 31/10/2022 15:31

Apologies for the buzzfeed link but was this a case mentioned on here?

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/drumoorhouse/richard-allen-arrested-charged-delphi-murders?origin=shp

Yes! So glad they finally solved this, but it's so odd that it took so long given that he lived and worked walking distance from the scene of the crime and his video must have been seen by everyone in that area, including his wife. Why didn't anyone identify him?

OP posts:
x2boys · 31/10/2022 15:59

potniatheron · 31/10/2022 14:16

Sanitary wear was very different in the 60s, you wore a big heavy pad which was secured to you by a little belt which went round your waist and between your legs. So if you were a young man getting a bit hot and heavy or having a kiss and a cuddle with a young lady at a dancehall, and you had your hands on her waist or at the tops of her thighs etc, you'd be able to feel the presence of the pad and the belt holding it in place.

Ew that is creepy .

RiftGibbon · 31/10/2022 16:59

Toddlerteaplease · 31/10/2022 15:09

@RiftGibbon there was a drama/documentary about the Road Hill house murder a few years ago. Set off case and I still can't decide of it really was his half sister. Even though she confessed years later.

Yes, she did confess years later but speculation is rife as to whether she really DID do it, or whether it was her brother, who she seems to have doted on. As she was not a typical girl (and looking at her behaviour now, certainly there were some issues worthy of diagnosis), she seems to have been a target - possibly a willing one.

potniatheron · 01/11/2022 09:27

x2boys · 31/10/2022 15:59

Ew that is creepy .

Isn't it? The other theory is that he got these girls into taxis to try and have sex with them but they refused, saying they were on their period, and he killed them out of frustration. I don't buy that, though - for a serial killer, the murder is the main event, not an Option B if you can't get sex.

Of course it may just be coincidence but my belief is that he had a menstruation fetish and went to the Glasgow dance halls specifically looking for girls who would fit that bill.

I agree Bible John is creepy as hell, always gives me the shivers.

BeaRightThere · 01/11/2022 09:40

This was almost certainly suicide. It's very sad and I feel for the parents but the show has exploited their grief.

Child Protection Services had been involved with the family due to issues between Tiffany and her mother. Her parents had not accepted her sexuality. All was not well in her life.

x2boys · 01/11/2022 09:48

potniatheron · 01/11/2022 09:27

Isn't it? The other theory is that he got these girls into taxis to try and have sex with them but they refused, saying they were on their period, and he killed them out of frustration. I don't buy that, though - for a serial killer, the murder is the main event, not an Option B if you can't get sex.

Of course it may just be coincidence but my belief is that he had a menstruation fetish and went to the Glasgow dance halls specifically looking for girls who would fit that bill.

I agree Bible John is creepy as hell, always gives me the shivers.

So maybe not Tobin,then if he had a paticular fetish ,i did watch a documentry ,but it was a while ago i know there were a few suspects and they realsed a sketch of him
As i recall nothing from the sketch was extraodinary ,so lots of average looking men were tsken in for questioning .

bombemma · 01/11/2022 21:00

Thanks to the PP that posted about the black hands podcast about David bains. Fascinating and in-depth I was hooked throughout

XelaM · 01/11/2022 21:27

bombemma · 01/11/2022 21:00

Thanks to the PP that posted about the black hands podcast about David bains. Fascinating and in-depth I was hooked throughout

There is a TV series about this case on Channel 4 catch up based on the podcast, but it doesn't actually go into the trial - just the murders and David's initial arrest. I have absolutely no doubt that he 100% guilty and it's very scary he is walking free.

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bombemma · 02/11/2022 10:35

I can't believe he was awarded £900k compensation. I can't believe he's a free man, it's honestly the most shocking thing I've ever listened too

XelaM · 03/11/2022 07:10

bombemma · 02/11/2022 10:35

I can't believe he was awarded £900k compensation. I can't believe he's a free man, it's honestly the most shocking thing I've ever listened too

I agree. It's so scary! The guy murdered his entire family and now gives lectures about "wrongful convictions".🤔

Honestly, watching the "Death Row" series on Prime, I get the feeling in many of those cases that lawyers (and some celebrities like Kim Kardashian 🙄) are trying to get convictions of mass-murderers and generally very dangerous criminals quashed on absolutely tiny technicalities and improbable alternative scenarios.

For example, the case of Kevin Keith in Ohio. That guy murdered 3 people including a 4 year-old girl and attempted to murder three more people in the same house including two 6 and 7-year-old children who were all shot numerous times point blank. Three of the victims miraculously survived and said he was the one who shot them. They actually KNEW him because they grew up in the same neighbourhood and they identified him as the shooter. There was also additional evidence against him and he did it because one of the victim's brothers "ratted him out" to the police and there was a big drug raid on him. He of course proclaims his innocence and you have celebrities like Kim starting campaigns to free him and providing completely improbable alternative suspects. The actual victims who were THERE have always said it was him who shot them. I hope he doesn't get released!

Same with Rodney Reed. That guy raped numerous women and murdered at least one of them. His DNA was found inside the victim and numerous other rape victims. The only reason he was caught was because he tried to rape another woman who managed to escape. Now celebrities and lawyers are trying to push for his release because of some bullshit story he told that him and the murder victim were having a secret affair (that up to that point no one knew about). And allegedly her racist fiancé killed her because he was so angry she was having an affair with a black man. Complete nonsense because (a) he's a rapist who has raped numerous women and (b) her fiancé couldn't have murdered her because he was seen by the victim's mother at their house in the early hours of the same day, so wouldn't have had time to murder her at the remote location she was found and then return in time.

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XelaM · 06/11/2022 14:42

On the subject of it being unlikely that police commit wrongdoing to try to pin crimes on innocent people, I generally agree, but there are some cases where police have behaved absolutely abhorrently.

Has anyone seen The Unsolved Murder of Beverly Lynn Smith on prime? It's actually beyond belief what the Canadian police did to try to pin the murder on Alan Smith. I honestly could not believe my eyes when watching this. The elaborate "sting operation" that must have cost the taxpayer millions was insane. He was clearly innocent and they were doing some insane movie-like stunts to get him to confess. It's like a playbook for how to illicit a false confession.

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Stath · 06/11/2022 15:11

Might’ve missed it being mentioned but do you listen to My Favourite Murder podcast @XelaM ?

XelaM · 06/11/2022 15:25

Stath · 06/11/2022 15:11

Might’ve missed it being mentioned but do you listen to My Favourite Murder podcast @XelaM ?

Haven't heard about it. I will check it out (and the other recommendations in this thread). Thank you! I usually don't listen to podcasts but so many people are into podcasts, I will definitely give it a go!

OP posts: