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Controversial murder cases (true crime documentaries) - guilty or not guilty?

227 replies

XelaM · 24/10/2022 13:14

I went down the rabbit hole of watching a number of true crime series and a few of the horrid cases have stuck in my mind. For example:

Tim Hennis - the decorated senior military officer who was convicted of the unbelievably brutal murder of the wife and two small children (5 and 3 year-old girls) of a fellow officer Gary Eastburn.

It's the "Double Jeopardy" episode on the "Death Row Stories" on Prime (free). I really can't get my head around this case and I keep thinking he is innocent. It just doesn't make sense. He was happily married with an infant daughter whom he adored, a decorated war hero who has (before and after the initial conviction) lived an absolutely picture-perfect life with not a single black mark against his character. How can this be reconciled with someone who stabbed two infant children 15 times each for apparently no reason at all other than to brutally rape and also absolutely savagely murder their mother? There was a lot of DNA at the scene, which didn't match his - male DNA under the fingernails of the victims, pubic hair, blood etc. It appears absolutely everyone was convinced this was a wrongful conviction. But then over 20 years later, the one bit of DNA that matched was the sperm inside the mother. He says they had consensual sex a few days before the murders, which also doesn't quite ring true. I really don't understand this case. It's such a tragedy for both the Eastburn and the Hennis families.

David Bain - the only survivor of the Bain family murders in NZ. I watched the "Bain Family Murders" series on Channel 4 (it's still on All 4) - not a documentary, but it's apparently very close to the real events. David was the sole survivor of the massacre of his whole family - father, mother, two sisters aged 19 and 18 and younger brother aged 14.

David was the eldest of the children at 22 and was allegedly doing his paper round when the murders took place. There was a typed note on the family computer saying "Sorry you're the only one who deserved to stay". There has been a lot debate about whether it was David or his father Robin who committed the murders. But having looked at the evidence (from what's available online) I cannot believe that David Bain is now free to walk the streets. There was so much evidence that he was the one who killed his whole family. The younger brother put up a huge fight and David could never explain the fresh injuries he sustained that morning; David's bloodied gloves were used on the gun (why would the father use gloves if he wanted to commit suicide?); David's broken glasses were found in the brother's room; the brother had fibres from David's sweater under his finger nails; David claimed to have heard his youngest sister gurgle up blood which scientifically would only have been possible if he was the killer; the way the father allegedly killed himself was almost an impossible position to recreate (and why would he use a silencer to make it even more awkward to kill himself?); he washed his clothes before calling the police and there was a bloodied finger print on the washing machine etc etc etc. It's so strange to me that his conviction was quashed based on the testimony of a few witnesses who claimed the youngest daughter was making contradictory claims that the father had abused her (I don't think that was ever proven to be true).

The Menendez brothers - the two sons of the famous Hollywood producer who murdered both their parents. Were they spoiled rich boys only after their parent's fortune or tragic victims of sexual abuse in fear for their lives? This is another Channel 4 documentary (I watched it on catch up on All 4).

Another very bizarre case. The multimillionaire Hollywood producer (who I believe produced Rambo and possibly Rocky) had the perfect Beverly Hills life with his wife and two good-looking seemingly carefree, typical "rich boys" sons. Until one day both he and his wife were brutally gunned down in their home. The murder was so brutal that the police initially thought this was a mafia hit and no one suspected the sons until the younger one stupidly confided in a crooked psychologist. The prosecution believed their only motivation was greed and money because the father was allegedly going to cut them out of his will. However, during the trial, they brought a totally unexpected defence - that they had been the victims of the most cruel sexual abuse at the hands of their father since early childhood and that they feared for their lives because they were going to expose their father. The mother apparently knew and enabled him. The defence had 51 witnesses (friends and family members) all testify what a horrible bastard the father was and it appears everyone hated him. But was he really sexually abusing his sons and were they really in fear for their lives when they killed their parents or were they just greedy rich boys after their parents' money? I'm really torn on this case. On the one hand, it's quite telling that the whole family on both sides is supporting them and that 51 witnesses all testified to say the father was an arsehole and their own evidence was very believable on the stand; however, the comments made by the elder brother after the first trial (that they managed to fool the jury) and their general behaviour and demeanour makes me think they made it up.

Anyone else interested in controversial convictions? Any opinions on either of the above cases or any other similar cases?

Apologies for the extremely long post 😬

OP posts:
x2boys · 28/10/2022 10:35

Namechangedforthisonetoday · 28/10/2022 10:13

Levi Bellfield and Peter Tobin killed many more. I think the police would put money on that. Certain things tie Levi to the scene of Lyn and Megan Russell’s deaths (although his gf at the time swears he was with her). I’ve always wondered whether Peter Tobin was Bible John.

I watched a documentrty abput Bible john ,i think Tobin was mentioned as a possibility ,i think they also said it could have been fred west as he travelled around ?

Namechangedforthisonetoday · 28/10/2022 11:27

Yes Fred is definitely a real possibility x2boys. The Wests murders are sadly very close to home for us for a number of reasons. Fred killed many more women and girls and later on with Rose too. The police are certain of it but sadly it doesn’t appear to be in the public interest to search sites that we know have been named to them as special places, particularly to Fred. Any bodies not buried in that house and garden would have a good possibility of being buried in these locations.
It makes me very sad to think that many missing people aren’t ‘missed’ enough by family or loved ones if that makes sense. Im not saying that applies in all cases by the way.

Dogsogdog · 28/10/2022 12:02

There’s a lot more linked to Robert black too, so awful that many families will not get closure

x2boys · 28/10/2022 16:33

Namechangedforthisonetoday · 28/10/2022 11:27

Yes Fred is definitely a real possibility x2boys. The Wests murders are sadly very close to home for us for a number of reasons. Fred killed many more women and girls and later on with Rose too. The police are certain of it but sadly it doesn’t appear to be in the public interest to search sites that we know have been named to them as special places, particularly to Fred. Any bodies not buried in that house and garden would have a good possibility of being buried in these locations.
It makes me very sad to think that many missing people aren’t ‘missed’ enough by family or loved ones if that makes sense. Im not saying that applies in all cases by the way.

That doesnt surprise me at all
The very recent Tragic murder of sarah everard was unsual ,in that a person who is cspable of commiting such a btutal murder doesnt just go from being a law abiding citizeen and a serving police officer at that ,to commiting such a heinious murder.

XelaM · 28/10/2022 17:38

x2boys · 28/10/2022 16:33

That doesnt surprise me at all
The very recent Tragic murder of sarah everard was unsual ,in that a person who is cspable of commiting such a btutal murder doesnt just go from being a law abiding citizeen and a serving police officer at that ,to commiting such a heinious murder.

That's the odd thing about people like Jeffrey MacDonald and Chris Watts and Tim Hennis and Darlie Routier though - the nature of their crimes and the manner in which they allegedly committed them was so diabolical that it's impossible to believe they could have gone from just a normal law abiding citizen to THAT. I still can't believe Tim Hennis is guilty because it's simply impossible to reconcile the man with the heinous nature of the crime.

OP posts:
LittleLottle · 28/10/2022 19:32

Sorry been following this thread for ideas for documentaries to watch but I've just seen online that someone has been arrested for the Delphi murders today!!

Cantanka · 28/10/2022 19:46

LittleLottle · 28/10/2022 19:32

Sorry been following this thread for ideas for documentaries to watch but I've just seen online that someone has been arrested for the Delphi murders today!!

Wow. I really hope this brings the families answers.

XelaM · 28/10/2022 21:46

LittleLottle · 28/10/2022 19:32

Sorry been following this thread for ideas for documentaries to watch but I've just seen online that someone has been arrested for the Delphi murders today!!

Wow! Apparently he lives 5 mins away from the bridge where the girls were killed, is married and has a daughter who looks a lot like Libby German!

OP posts:
MostTacticalNameChange · 29/10/2022 10:44

Just seen this too- be very interesting to see what comes out about this and how he has got away with it so long. Like OP says, it's very rare to go from nothing to double murder so wonder if he's linked to other crimes.

XelaM · 29/10/2022 11:43

MostTacticalNameChange · 29/10/2022 10:44

Just seen this too- be very interesting to see what comes out about this and how he has got away with it so long. Like OP says, it's very rare to go from nothing to double murder so wonder if he's linked to other crimes.

I wonder if the above poster who said the locals knew who he was but were keeping a wall of silence was right! Richard Allen lived 5mins from the scene of the murders and fits the drawing of one of the suspects perfectly. Locals must have recognised it was him from the video that was released but kept quiet.

OP posts:
XelaM · 29/10/2022 21:45

MostTacticalNameChange · 26/10/2022 19:18

From the documentary, there is a lot of evidence Chris and Shannan weren't happy and there were money problems. But I think this was all due to him pulling away from her and family life and spoiling his mistress instead. There is speculation the mistress was a lot further in on it too but who knows now. He must have built up such a resentment to his family for "keeping him" from the life he wanted to have done that rather than just leave. Annihilating your family because you don't want to lose money or face - the fucking ego of it.

What is truly inconceivable is that he has 'fans' and is kept busy writing to them from jail. It shouldn't be allowed.

Absolutely disgusting that those men (like Chris Watts and Jeffrey MacDonald) who are only unattached bachelors because they brutally butchered their families get a whole fan club of women writing to them in prison. It shouldn't be allowed. Jeffrey MacDonald's crazy (second) wife keeps fighting for his release. The only reason she's still alive is because he's in prison.

OP posts:
x2boys · 29/10/2022 22:15

XelaM · 29/10/2022 21:45

Absolutely disgusting that those men (like Chris Watts and Jeffrey MacDonald) who are only unattached bachelors because they brutally butchered their families get a whole fan club of women writing to them in prison. It shouldn't be allowed. Jeffrey MacDonald's crazy (second) wife keeps fighting for his release. The only reason she's still alive is because he's in prison.

Apperently Ted Bundy had quite a female fan base ,who turned up to court and thought he was just miundersrood ....
I mean im fascinated by true crime and i watch loads of true crime documenteries but i really cant see the appeal of these men.

x2boys · 29/10/2022 22:15

Misunderstood*

Dogsogdog · 29/10/2022 23:05

Richard Ramirez did too, horrific

YouLando · 29/10/2022 23:10

XelaM if you're interested in the Jeffrey Mcdonald case, I would recommend the book Fatal Vision by Joe McGinnis, if you haven't already read it.

McGinnis was supposed to be writing a book with McDonald's co-operation, with the view that he was an innocent man, but after spending a lot of time with him, and finding out more about the murders, he realised that Mcdonald was not the amazing family man that he had presented himself as, and that he was likely guilty as sin.... awful case of family annihilation. Classic narcissist.

XelaM · 29/10/2022 23:25

YouLando · 29/10/2022 23:10

XelaM if you're interested in the Jeffrey Mcdonald case, I would recommend the book Fatal Vision by Joe McGinnis, if you haven't already read it.

McGinnis was supposed to be writing a book with McDonald's co-operation, with the view that he was an innocent man, but after spending a lot of time with him, and finding out more about the murders, he realised that Mcdonald was not the amazing family man that he had presented himself as, and that he was likely guilty as sin.... awful case of family annihilation. Classic narcissist.

I haven't read it, but McGinnis was interviewed on "A Wilderness of Error" and there was a whole episode about his book "Fatal Vision" and the subsequent film. I really want to read it and watch the film. The victim's family and friends said it was spot on! MacDonald said on "A Wilderness of Error" that McGinnis' betrayal was one of the biggest blows if his life. 🙄 Because McGinnis was one of his biggest supporters and his best friend apparently. But even his in-laws were initially completely convinced he was innocent. Her step-father Freddy testified in MacDonald's defence. I think it was impossible for them to reconcile the man with the crime. But the forensic evidence against MacDonald in that case is irrefutable and his story about the crazy hippies utterly nonsensical. Doesn't matter how many times Helena Stoekley confesses to having been there, she was clearly mentally ill and the only person who could have committed the murders was MacDonald.

OP posts:
inspiration101 · 29/10/2022 23:35

There is a case here in Ireland where a Gardaí Donahue was shot during a bank robbery 10 years ago three years ago they trialed someone found him guilty yet the whole case just stinks of a set up no factual evidence the poor lad has been sentenced to 42 years for what a lot of people think is a crime he did not commit search Aaron Brady. shocking to think in the western world there is so much corruption.

XelaM · 29/10/2022 23:59

inspiration101 · 29/10/2022 23:35

There is a case here in Ireland where a Gardaí Donahue was shot during a bank robbery 10 years ago three years ago they trialed someone found him guilty yet the whole case just stinks of a set up no factual evidence the poor lad has been sentenced to 42 years for what a lot of people think is a crime he did not commit search Aaron Brady. shocking to think in the western world there is so much corruption.

That's so sad. I will look it up. There were/are definitely cases where the police/prosecution wanted an easy scape goat to "solve" the case and obtain a conviction.

As part of the "Death Row Stories" on Prime, they also examined the case of poor Walter Ogrod who spent 23 years on death row and I think 28 years in prison all together for the horrific murder of a 4-year-old girl. He was eventually exonerated by DNA evidence that for nearly 30 years the prosecution and the courts refused to test. They were just glad to have "solved" the murder. Meanwhile the real murder remained at large and it is suspected he killed another girl in the same area a few years later.

OP posts:
RosesAndHellebores · 30/10/2022 00:10

Regarding the Bamber case, actually in the 70s/80s people did keep a note of the local police station, particularly farmers who would often report local matters relating to their land. My grandparents would have done, as would my parents.

I am not convinced Jeremy Bamber is guilty but only because whilst there was evidence to suggest it wasn't Sheila, there was no incontrovertible evidence to say Jeremy, rather than someone else did it.

I am also not convinced only one person was involved. Someone in that house killed others; someone else might have killed them.

Lostintuesday · 30/10/2022 01:08

Another one for the Panama disappearance of the two Dutch girls. I'm leaning more towards natural causes/ accident rather than foul play. The photos are chilling.

Mamai90 · 30/10/2022 01:15

Guy Heinze Jnr. I believe he is innocent. The story just doesn't add up. We have a really fucked up justice system where the majority of violent crime and sex offenders get top lenient sentences.

Although the US justice system is even worse, if you're innocent and found guilty there really isn't much hope having your conviction over turned.

SandyY2K · 30/10/2022 01:33

Chris Watts is despicable.
He should have got a divorce...People have affairs every day, but he chose murder. Awful man.

There's a name for women attracted to men who commit violent crimes.

I never hear of men who are attracted or obsessed with with women like this. I just don't get it.

XelaM · 30/10/2022 05:30

SandyY2K · 30/10/2022 01:33

Chris Watts is despicable.
He should have got a divorce...People have affairs every day, but he chose murder. Awful man.

There's a name for women attracted to men who commit violent crimes.

I never hear of men who are attracted or obsessed with with women like this. I just don't get it.

Exactly. I just can't understand why Chris Watts and Jeffrey MacDonald thought getting a divorce was the less preferable option to murdering their pregnant wives and little children. Why didn't they just leave?!? Chris with his "fun" new girlfriend and Jeff to pursue his many love affairs as a bachelor. Surely they must have thought about leaving and decided to kill them all instead?! I can't understand it, especially as in neither case there was any reason as to why they couldn't just leave and continue to enjoy their lives.

As for the women who then marry them whilst they are in prison, I really have no words. If a man has been convicted of murdering his wife/family, he should not be allowed to remarry in prison. It shouldn't be allowed. Jeffrey MacDonald's wife for example is clearly a nutcase.

OP posts:
Ljc1985 · 30/10/2022 05:48

Laiste · 24/10/2022 15:19

I just watched one of the Unsolved Mysteries (Netflix) about the 18 year old girl 'hit' by a freight train in the USA in the woods in the middle of the night.

Her death has been recorded as suicide. The family are adamant it was not.

This train track was 6 miles from her home where she'd gone missing a couple of hours earlier. She was caught on CCTV camera as she left the house so the time was known. Her phone (which she was usually ''glued to'' like all teenagers) was found in the grass by the road near her house.

Her body, on the tracks, was barefoot and nearly naked. Her shoes were found a couple of weeks later miles away next to a busy road and the rest of her clothes were never found.

There was no damage the soles of her feet even though there was no path to the point on the tracks where the train ran over her. Just sharp gravel.

She was tall. Her injuries were consistent with her laying across the narrow tracks and the train running her over.

Suicide ?!?! I mean .....

I just watched this one!

I started off thinking she def committed suicide especially after the fight about the credit card but by the end it just was to random! The feet thing is freaky and it sounds like the transport police just missed so many things for anyone to ever know what happened.

Candymay · 30/10/2022 06:59

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 25/10/2022 02:51

Posted too soon!
“I watch a lot of True Crime documentaries.
In another life I think I’d like to be some sort of criminologist!” - Said to me by a friend.

I think a lot of people see themselves as amateur sleuths. I think criminal psychologists do a bit more than watch a few documentaries on Netflix.

i think your friend was probably saying she would have liked to train as a criminologist. To study and then work in this field.

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