Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Controversial murder cases (true crime documentaries) - guilty or not guilty?

227 replies

XelaM · 24/10/2022 13:14

I went down the rabbit hole of watching a number of true crime series and a few of the horrid cases have stuck in my mind. For example:

Tim Hennis - the decorated senior military officer who was convicted of the unbelievably brutal murder of the wife and two small children (5 and 3 year-old girls) of a fellow officer Gary Eastburn.

It's the "Double Jeopardy" episode on the "Death Row Stories" on Prime (free). I really can't get my head around this case and I keep thinking he is innocent. It just doesn't make sense. He was happily married with an infant daughter whom he adored, a decorated war hero who has (before and after the initial conviction) lived an absolutely picture-perfect life with not a single black mark against his character. How can this be reconciled with someone who stabbed two infant children 15 times each for apparently no reason at all other than to brutally rape and also absolutely savagely murder their mother? There was a lot of DNA at the scene, which didn't match his - male DNA under the fingernails of the victims, pubic hair, blood etc. It appears absolutely everyone was convinced this was a wrongful conviction. But then over 20 years later, the one bit of DNA that matched was the sperm inside the mother. He says they had consensual sex a few days before the murders, which also doesn't quite ring true. I really don't understand this case. It's such a tragedy for both the Eastburn and the Hennis families.

David Bain - the only survivor of the Bain family murders in NZ. I watched the "Bain Family Murders" series on Channel 4 (it's still on All 4) - not a documentary, but it's apparently very close to the real events. David was the sole survivor of the massacre of his whole family - father, mother, two sisters aged 19 and 18 and younger brother aged 14.

David was the eldest of the children at 22 and was allegedly doing his paper round when the murders took place. There was a typed note on the family computer saying "Sorry you're the only one who deserved to stay". There has been a lot debate about whether it was David or his father Robin who committed the murders. But having looked at the evidence (from what's available online) I cannot believe that David Bain is now free to walk the streets. There was so much evidence that he was the one who killed his whole family. The younger brother put up a huge fight and David could never explain the fresh injuries he sustained that morning; David's bloodied gloves were used on the gun (why would the father use gloves if he wanted to commit suicide?); David's broken glasses were found in the brother's room; the brother had fibres from David's sweater under his finger nails; David claimed to have heard his youngest sister gurgle up blood which scientifically would only have been possible if he was the killer; the way the father allegedly killed himself was almost an impossible position to recreate (and why would he use a silencer to make it even more awkward to kill himself?); he washed his clothes before calling the police and there was a bloodied finger print on the washing machine etc etc etc. It's so strange to me that his conviction was quashed based on the testimony of a few witnesses who claimed the youngest daughter was making contradictory claims that the father had abused her (I don't think that was ever proven to be true).

The Menendez brothers - the two sons of the famous Hollywood producer who murdered both their parents. Were they spoiled rich boys only after their parent's fortune or tragic victims of sexual abuse in fear for their lives? This is another Channel 4 documentary (I watched it on catch up on All 4).

Another very bizarre case. The multimillionaire Hollywood producer (who I believe produced Rambo and possibly Rocky) had the perfect Beverly Hills life with his wife and two good-looking seemingly carefree, typical "rich boys" sons. Until one day both he and his wife were brutally gunned down in their home. The murder was so brutal that the police initially thought this was a mafia hit and no one suspected the sons until the younger one stupidly confided in a crooked psychologist. The prosecution believed their only motivation was greed and money because the father was allegedly going to cut them out of his will. However, during the trial, they brought a totally unexpected defence - that they had been the victims of the most cruel sexual abuse at the hands of their father since early childhood and that they feared for their lives because they were going to expose their father. The mother apparently knew and enabled him. The defence had 51 witnesses (friends and family members) all testify what a horrible bastard the father was and it appears everyone hated him. But was he really sexually abusing his sons and were they really in fear for their lives when they killed their parents or were they just greedy rich boys after their parents' money? I'm really torn on this case. On the one hand, it's quite telling that the whole family on both sides is supporting them and that 51 witnesses all testified to say the father was an arsehole and their own evidence was very believable on the stand; however, the comments made by the elder brother after the first trial (that they managed to fool the jury) and their general behaviour and demeanour makes me think they made it up.

Anyone else interested in controversial convictions? Any opinions on either of the above cases or any other similar cases?

Apologies for the extremely long post 😬

OP posts:
poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 08:18

MayThe4th · 25/10/2022 14:05

As much as people talk about miscarriages of justice though and people who are wrongly convicted. There will also be people who were wrongly acquitted and are still at large.

You mean Casey Anthony?

Namechangedforthisonetoday · 26/10/2022 10:50

Andrew Gosden breaks my heart. That poor boy. I just pray he’s ok or at least at peace now and not suffering based on what was found when two people were arrested last year.

XelaM · 26/10/2022 13:25

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 08:18

You mean Casey Anthony?

To add to the list... David Bain as mentioned in this thread earlier, OJ of course although he ended up in jail eventually. Also, whilst watching the "Death Row Stories" on Prime and the inmates that have been released - I think Rodney Reed killed Stacey Stites and I think it's shocking he was released. His DNA was found inside of her as well as in several other rape victims and the only reason he was caught for Stacey's murder is because tried to tape another woman! I absolutely don't believe his story that they were having some secret live affair. Her fiancé may have been a total arsehole, but he didn't kill her.

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 13:26

rape another woman*

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 16:21

potniatheron · 25/10/2022 09:22

Darlie Routier - guilty in my view.

Jeremy Bamber - not guilty, family scapegoat.

Asha Degree - someone within the family or well known to the the family.

Andrew Gosden and Amy Lynn Bradley - sex trafficking.

I think a lot of people don't realise how common and internationally well organised the sex trafficking industry is. I think that's because it rarely happens to white westerners and mostly to indigenous and far east / south east asia women and girils.

My own pet controversies, for what they're worth:

  • The Yorkshire Ripper clearly killed out of sexual gratification and misogyny ( he was a cross dresser and had a rape kit in his car) yet managed to convince a psychiatrist he was schizophrenic on zero good evidence, avoided a jury trial and had a cushy life in Broadmoor. Just goes to show how little valued the lives of the women were.
  • I think Jimmy Savile was involved in some of the Yorkshire Ripper's crimes. One of the victims' bodies were found in Savile's back garden. They were very close when the YR was in Broadmoor.
  • Maddie McCann - more going on in that fmaily than met the eye. I don't think they killed her. I do think there was abuse happening.
  • Ditto JonBenet Ramsay.

Darlene Routier - Why do you think she's guilty? Apart from her demeanour that people didn't like and the "silly strings" video there appeared to have been neither motive nor much evidence that she staged the scene of an intrusion. Why would she only kill two of her kids and not all three of she wanted to kill the kids? And she must have beaten herself up pretty badly and then slashed her throat nearly dying. It's a bit of a flawed plan if all she wanted was the $5000 insurance claim.

Maddie McCann - The parents may be very unlikable, but I have never seen any real evidence that they were either involved in her disappearance or abused their kids. The documentaries about the case didn't really present any factual evidence against the parents.

JonBenet Ramsey - It absolutely wouldn't surprise me if there was abuse in that family and it was definitely the family that murdered her and covered it up. Probably the brother and the parents covered it up.

Andrew Gosden - He may have run away from home, but with whom and how did he just vanish? The police really messed up this search. There must have been so much CCTV available around Kings Cross at the time. I think he was lured into something sinister and unfortunately either a sex ring or by a psycho.

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 16:29

@potniatheron Just to add about Asha Degree - It's just so bizarre that she was spotted by several witnesses walking along a busy road at night completely alone. Why? If it was a family member who lured her out did she escape them? Completely inexplicable circumstances

OP posts:
Asher33 · 26/10/2022 16:34

I think Jimmy Savile was involved in some of the Yorkshire Ripper's crimes. One of the victims' bodies were found in Savile's back garden. They were very close when the YR was in Broadmoor.

Out of interest do you have a source about the body being found in Savile's back garden?

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 16:47

XelaM · 26/10/2022 13:25

To add to the list... David Bain as mentioned in this thread earlier, OJ of course although he ended up in jail eventually. Also, whilst watching the "Death Row Stories" on Prime and the inmates that have been released - I think Rodney Reed killed Stacey Stites and I think it's shocking he was released. His DNA was found inside of her as well as in several other rape victims and the only reason he was caught for Stacey's murder is because tried to tape another woman! I absolutely don't believe his story that they were having some secret live affair. Her fiancé may have been a total arsehole, but he didn't kill her.

Rodney Reed is still incarcerated though? I'm slightly confused.

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 16:49

This reply has been deleted

Petitions are only allowed on the petitions and activism board.

XelaM · 26/10/2022 17:05

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 16:47

Rodney Reed is still incarcerated though? I'm slightly confused.

Th "Death Row Stories" doc said he has been released. Maybe he was incarcerated again? Not sure if the doc was up to date. That man is dangerous. If he's in prison, that's definitely a good thing

OP posts:
Darbs76 · 26/10/2022 17:14

I like true crime so must investigate these. One comment though is sometimes people with no records, no sign of ever doing anything even remotely criminal let alone murder do something completely out of character. Like Chris Watts - baffles me that case and I’ve investigated a lot of murders.

MilliwaysUniverse · 26/10/2022 17:15

Another one for Casey Anthony. I was in Florida when Caylee was reported missing, and by coincidence when her trial was starting and the jury selection was taking place. I have been interested in it since, she is definitely guilty.

Mentalpiece · 26/10/2022 17:19

XelaM · 24/10/2022 15:00

Thank you! I haven't heard of it and will definitely look it up

It is on Netflix at the moment.

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 17:22

XelaM · 26/10/2022 17:05

Th "Death Row Stories" doc said he has been released. Maybe he was incarcerated again? Not sure if the doc was up to date. That man is dangerous. If he's in prison, that's definitely a good thing

Read through the Wikipedia page, doesn't seem like he was ever released and is still incarcerated, there's been plenty of appeals for a stay of execution.

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 17:25

MilliwaysUniverse · 26/10/2022 17:15

Another one for Casey Anthony. I was in Florida when Caylee was reported missing, and by coincidence when her trial was starting and the jury selection was taking place. I have been interested in it since, she is definitely guilty.

I 100% believe she is guilty, I've seen mentioned that some of the reason she was found innocent was due to the prosecution pressing for the death penalty and the jury not being confident enough in her being guilty with the death penalty on the table.

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 17:28

I'll try again because apparently you can only post petitions on the activism board. If you haven't heard of her look up Ellen Rae Greenberg, her death was (very questionably) labelled a suicide 11 years ago and there's a campaign to have her case reopened.

x2boys · 26/10/2022 17:43

MilliwaysUniverse · 26/10/2022 17:15

Another one for Casey Anthony. I was in Florida when Caylee was reported missing, and by coincidence when her trial was starting and the jury selection was taking place. I have been interested in it since, she is definitely guilty.

Yes that's such a strange one and ,she was certainly a fantasist and a liar.

XelaM · 26/10/2022 17:59

Darbs76 · 26/10/2022 17:14

I like true crime so must investigate these. One comment though is sometimes people with no records, no sign of ever doing anything even remotely criminal let alone murder do something completely out of character. Like Chris Watts - baffles me that case and I’ve investigated a lot of murders.

The Chris Watts case is incomprehensible! I watched the Netflix documentary and I actually posted about it on here because I simply couldn't believe what I saw/heard. The comment that the judge made at the Jeremy Bamber sentencing- that he was "evil almost beyond belief" - if ever that label fitted anyone it's Chris Watts!!!

He killed his entire family for someone he just met 5mins ago. She was more fun and he wanted to get rid of his (pregnant) wife and kids who adored him. Why didn't he just get a divorce?!?! But the most unbelievable thing about this case is the manner in which he killed the kids. I could understand it if he flipped out one night and in a rage killed his wife and kids whilst the kids were asleep. But no... he didn't kill the kids in their sleep at all.

What he did was first kill his wife during the night and then in the morning - absolutely coldly drive the two little girls (who sang "daddy is my hero" a few days ago and adored their dad) in the car together with their mother's body to the remote oil plant location and then absolutely coolly kill them one by one. This was not in a rage or because he lost control like so many family murders, it was absolutely cold premeditated murder in the hard light of day. The girls asked him "is mummy ok?" whilst they were driving for about an hour with her body in the car next to them! When they arrived at the oil plant, he first killed one of the girls and the older one started crying "Please don't kill me daddy". He then killed her as well. Then he dumped them in two separate oil tanks and proceeded with his day completely believing that he would get away with killing his whole family. What the actual fuck?!

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 18:09

Mentalpiece · 26/10/2022 17:19

It is on Netflix at the moment.

What is it called? I couldn't find it. Having looked it up, I actually HAVE heard if this case! That poor poor mother!! This must have been a sex trafficking ring that took him because there were several boys who disappeared in the area shortly thereafter.

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 18:21

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 17:28

I'll try again because apparently you can only post petitions on the activism board. If you haven't heard of her look up Ellen Rae Greenberg, her death was (very questionably) labelled a suicide 11 years ago and there's a campaign to have her case reopened.

Thank you! Reading about this case now

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 18:31

MayThe4th · 25/10/2022 08:38

I think sometimes we believe people must be innocent because we can’t imagine how say, a mother could murder their children. As mothers this is incomprehensible.

Darlie routier is 100% guilty. I fail to see why anyone believes she isn’t.

I believe Andrew Gosden deliberately ran away. Obviously no-one knows what happened to him after he reached London, but he deliberately bought a one way ticket there.

Thing is family will always come out and express their shock, sadness, incredulity that this could happen, but nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors, and none of us knows what Andrew may have had to run away from.

Why do you think Darlie Routier is guilty?

Even if Andrew Gosden deliberately ran away, who did he meet and where is he?

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 18:34

DanteThunderstone · 25/10/2022 10:28

William Tyrrell is another case that remains unsolved. Australian toddler who went missing, supposedly in a moment from his grandmother's house on the edge of a small town. Due to Australian privacy laws, it was years before the media was allowed to disclose that he was actually a foster child and had actually last been seen in the custody of his foster mother and her mum. The police initially thought he'd wandered off into the bush, then that he'd been abducted by a stranger. Developments since suggest they think he may have died closer to home. There's a suspicion that metadata on a digital photo of William may have been manipulated to alter the time he was supposedly last photographed.

His foster mum has since been arrested in relation to another foster child. The foster family's identities are still being withheld.

I feel desperately sorry for his birth family who had buckets of problems but undoubtedly loved him. When he was a baby they hid from authorities rather than surrender him to care. They were caught, he was taken into 'care' - and then this nightmare. Poor tot.

Omg this is so sad 😞

OP posts:
XelaM · 26/10/2022 18:38

muddlingthrou · 25/10/2022 12:00

I'm genuinely interested in what convincing evidence there is against the West Memphis Three? In my understanding (and this isn't just based on Paradise Lost), the case was entirely circumstantial and is a great example of the satanic panic infecting the US justice system.

I actually think they were guilty. I watched the documentary and came away thinking they were guilty

OP posts:
MissTruecrime · 26/10/2022 18:39

Have you seen this one, so glad it’s being looked at again. No way would anyone commit suicide like this
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11166011/Cops-REOPEN-case-woman-stabbed-20-times-ruled-suicide-killer.html

XelaM · 26/10/2022 18:43

MissTruecrime · 26/10/2022 18:39

Have you seen this one, so glad it’s being looked at again. No way would anyone commit suicide like this
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11166011/Cops-REOPEN-case-woman-stabbed-20-times-ruled-suicide-killer.html

This is the case that a PP mentioned! Just looked at the article. That's insane. It's like "he ran into my knife 10 times.."

OP posts: