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Controversial murder cases (true crime documentaries) - guilty or not guilty?

227 replies

XelaM · 24/10/2022 13:14

I went down the rabbit hole of watching a number of true crime series and a few of the horrid cases have stuck in my mind. For example:

Tim Hennis - the decorated senior military officer who was convicted of the unbelievably brutal murder of the wife and two small children (5 and 3 year-old girls) of a fellow officer Gary Eastburn.

It's the "Double Jeopardy" episode on the "Death Row Stories" on Prime (free). I really can't get my head around this case and I keep thinking he is innocent. It just doesn't make sense. He was happily married with an infant daughter whom he adored, a decorated war hero who has (before and after the initial conviction) lived an absolutely picture-perfect life with not a single black mark against his character. How can this be reconciled with someone who stabbed two infant children 15 times each for apparently no reason at all other than to brutally rape and also absolutely savagely murder their mother? There was a lot of DNA at the scene, which didn't match his - male DNA under the fingernails of the victims, pubic hair, blood etc. It appears absolutely everyone was convinced this was a wrongful conviction. But then over 20 years later, the one bit of DNA that matched was the sperm inside the mother. He says they had consensual sex a few days before the murders, which also doesn't quite ring true. I really don't understand this case. It's such a tragedy for both the Eastburn and the Hennis families.

David Bain - the only survivor of the Bain family murders in NZ. I watched the "Bain Family Murders" series on Channel 4 (it's still on All 4) - not a documentary, but it's apparently very close to the real events. David was the sole survivor of the massacre of his whole family - father, mother, two sisters aged 19 and 18 and younger brother aged 14.

David was the eldest of the children at 22 and was allegedly doing his paper round when the murders took place. There was a typed note on the family computer saying "Sorry you're the only one who deserved to stay". There has been a lot debate about whether it was David or his father Robin who committed the murders. But having looked at the evidence (from what's available online) I cannot believe that David Bain is now free to walk the streets. There was so much evidence that he was the one who killed his whole family. The younger brother put up a huge fight and David could never explain the fresh injuries he sustained that morning; David's bloodied gloves were used on the gun (why would the father use gloves if he wanted to commit suicide?); David's broken glasses were found in the brother's room; the brother had fibres from David's sweater under his finger nails; David claimed to have heard his youngest sister gurgle up blood which scientifically would only have been possible if he was the killer; the way the father allegedly killed himself was almost an impossible position to recreate (and why would he use a silencer to make it even more awkward to kill himself?); he washed his clothes before calling the police and there was a bloodied finger print on the washing machine etc etc etc. It's so strange to me that his conviction was quashed based on the testimony of a few witnesses who claimed the youngest daughter was making contradictory claims that the father had abused her (I don't think that was ever proven to be true).

The Menendez brothers - the two sons of the famous Hollywood producer who murdered both their parents. Were they spoiled rich boys only after their parent's fortune or tragic victims of sexual abuse in fear for their lives? This is another Channel 4 documentary (I watched it on catch up on All 4).

Another very bizarre case. The multimillionaire Hollywood producer (who I believe produced Rambo and possibly Rocky) had the perfect Beverly Hills life with his wife and two good-looking seemingly carefree, typical "rich boys" sons. Until one day both he and his wife were brutally gunned down in their home. The murder was so brutal that the police initially thought this was a mafia hit and no one suspected the sons until the younger one stupidly confided in a crooked psychologist. The prosecution believed their only motivation was greed and money because the father was allegedly going to cut them out of his will. However, during the trial, they brought a totally unexpected defence - that they had been the victims of the most cruel sexual abuse at the hands of their father since early childhood and that they feared for their lives because they were going to expose their father. The mother apparently knew and enabled him. The defence had 51 witnesses (friends and family members) all testify what a horrible bastard the father was and it appears everyone hated him. But was he really sexually abusing his sons and were they really in fear for their lives when they killed their parents or were they just greedy rich boys after their parents' money? I'm really torn on this case. On the one hand, it's quite telling that the whole family on both sides is supporting them and that 51 witnesses all testified to say the father was an arsehole and their own evidence was very believable on the stand; however, the comments made by the elder brother after the first trial (that they managed to fool the jury) and their general behaviour and demeanour makes me think they made it up.

Anyone else interested in controversial convictions? Any opinions on either of the above cases or any other similar cases?

Apologies for the extremely long post 😬

OP posts:
XelaM · 24/10/2022 16:50

Notjusta · 24/10/2022 16:37

Have you watched The Staircase OP? I think the documentary is still on Netflix. Fascinating. Also there is a podcast I think about the same case that takes a very different stance to the documentary. I watched the documentary first, then the podcast and am still not sure what I think about the case.

Yes!! I have seen the Staircase, although not heard the podcast. It looked to me like he was definitely guilty.

OP posts:
Mangogogogo · 24/10/2022 16:51

I was like this… until I started the zx job I do now.

i appreciate there are cop cover ups and corruption but the info released to the public about cases like these is a drop in the ocean compared to what is held in evidence. It was so eye opening and now I’m less skeptical about everything. As civilians we just dont know the full facts and therefore we cannot pretend to know more than a judge, jury and police who have poured over, often quite disturbing, facts and photos and evidence for months/years.

you can sometimes read the court transcripts online, I recommend darlie routier’s.

XelaM · 24/10/2022 16:54

@DanteThunderstone I struggle to imagine what happened to Asha Degree. No conviction in the case of her disappearance, so off topic for the thread, but also no obvious suspect or motive for why a little girl left her house in the middle of a stormy night.

This case is so haunting and an absolute mystery. Why on Earth would a little girl leave the house in the middle of the night in terrible weather to walk for miles and miles? It's baffling

OP posts:
RightOnTheEdge · 24/10/2022 16:55

Laiste · 24/10/2022 15:19

I just watched one of the Unsolved Mysteries (Netflix) about the 18 year old girl 'hit' by a freight train in the USA in the woods in the middle of the night.

Her death has been recorded as suicide. The family are adamant it was not.

This train track was 6 miles from her home where she'd gone missing a couple of hours earlier. She was caught on CCTV camera as she left the house so the time was known. Her phone (which she was usually ''glued to'' like all teenagers) was found in the grass by the road near her house.

Her body, on the tracks, was barefoot and nearly naked. Her shoes were found a couple of weeks later miles away next to a busy road and the rest of her clothes were never found.

There was no damage the soles of her feet even though there was no path to the point on the tracks where the train ran over her. Just sharp gravel.

She was tall. Her injuries were consistent with her laying across the narrow tracks and the train running her over.

Suicide ?!?! I mean .....

I just watched this the other day too!
Her poor family!

I watched the documentary about Sophie Toscan du Plantier. It's terrible! It was so brutal!
I can't believe they haven't caught the killer, that someone capable of something so savage could just get away with it.

XelaM · 24/10/2022 16:58

Mangogogogo · 24/10/2022 16:51

I was like this… until I started the zx job I do now.

i appreciate there are cop cover ups and corruption but the info released to the public about cases like these is a drop in the ocean compared to what is held in evidence. It was so eye opening and now I’m less skeptical about everything. As civilians we just dont know the full facts and therefore we cannot pretend to know more than a judge, jury and police who have poured over, often quite disturbing, facts and photos and evidence for months/years.

you can sometimes read the court transcripts online, I recommend darlie routier’s.

I don't usually believe in cop coverups. That always seems unlikely to me. But sometimes mistakes are made due to lazy or incompetent police work or the jury returning guilty verdicts despite very weak evidence.

As for the court transcripts - wasn't there a huge scandal involving Darlie Routier's court transcripts in particular? It turns out they contained a huge number of errors and the person who did the transcripts was going to be questioned, but plead the 5th?

OP posts:
KitBumbleB · 24/10/2022 17:06

I agree the evidence against Luke Mitchell is sketchy at best, definitely not proven beyond all reasonable doubt IMO.

Scott Peterson is an odd one as well, I think he did kill his wife Lori, however I don't think he did it in the way the prosecution presented and I wouldn't have been able to sentence him to death.

OnAStarryNight · 24/10/2022 17:11

I was also going to mention The Staircase. I've only seen the documentary but it definitely appeared to make him look guilty. I found his family relationships strange, and the way he welcomed the film crew in. Didn't he also leave the blood on the wall for ages afterwards whilst still living in the house?

The programme that started my interest in this was Making a Murderer. Such a sad situation for everyone involved, and after watching it I did feel like they were innocent. It's unbelievable how they were treated by the US police aswell. I think some members of the family might still be in prison.

SolviturAmbulando · 24/10/2022 17:26

XelaM · 24/10/2022 16:58

I don't usually believe in cop coverups. That always seems unlikely to me. But sometimes mistakes are made due to lazy or incompetent police work or the jury returning guilty verdicts despite very weak evidence.

As for the court transcripts - wasn't there a huge scandal involving Darlie Routier's court transcripts in particular? It turns out they contained a huge number of errors and the person who did the transcripts was going to be questioned, but plead the 5th?

We also have to consider the corruption, misogyny, racism, sectarianism, disablism and homophobia uncovered in police services like the Met and Northern Ireland. With individual officers of every rank and institutional cultures like that, investigations, evidence gathering and presentation, decisions and the treatment of victims, their families, witnesses and the accused is not always as it should be.

ReginaPerrin · 24/10/2022 17:48

XelaM · 24/10/2022 15:00

Thank you! I haven't heard of it and will definitely look it up

There’s a documentary on Netflix about this, it’s called Sophie (A Murder in West Cork).

TheLizardQueen · 24/10/2022 18:05

Murder in a Small Town - Luke Mitchell was IMO wrongly imprisoned for the murder of Jodie Jones. It was all based on circumstantial evidence. Trial by media. I’ve always said that boy in innocent and the real murderer is still out there.

Laiste · 24/10/2022 18:25

The Staircase: that was fascinating and awful. Wife falls down short flight of stairs, suffers unusually horrific head injuries and dies there slowly and alone. Bad enough. But you remain open minded. Strange things do happen sometimes ...

but then, the moment which always stuck with me, the reveal that this is the second of his wives to die falling down some stairs!

Laiste · 24/10/2022 18:31

The murder of Sophie, the french lady with a home in rural Ireland - well - that had so many twists and turns in it you were left all at sea. It's a while ago now that i watched it, but i remember being convinced it was that British journalist - weird bloke - who was seen out on the road the night she was murdered. But then the witness later retracted her statement saying she saw him, or anyone at all, or something. Really frustrating tangled case.

XelaM · 24/10/2022 20:17

OnAStarryNight · 24/10/2022 17:11

I was also going to mention The Staircase. I've only seen the documentary but it definitely appeared to make him look guilty. I found his family relationships strange, and the way he welcomed the film crew in. Didn't he also leave the blood on the wall for ages afterwards whilst still living in the house?

The programme that started my interest in this was Making a Murderer. Such a sad situation for everyone involved, and after watching it I did feel like they were innocent. It's unbelievable how they were treated by the US police aswell. I think some members of the family might still be in prison.

Making a Murderer broke my heart for Stephen's poor poor parents 😭It definitely sounded like he and the nephew were innocent but I think all appeals have been rejected

OP posts:
XelaM · 24/10/2022 20:18

Laiste · 24/10/2022 18:31

The murder of Sophie, the french lady with a home in rural Ireland - well - that had so many twists and turns in it you were left all at sea. It's a while ago now that i watched it, but i remember being convinced it was that British journalist - weird bloke - who was seen out on the road the night she was murdered. But then the witness later retracted her statement saying she saw him, or anyone at all, or something. Really frustrating tangled case.

Oh I now remember watching this! I think it remains unresolved. So frustrating

OP posts:
Namechangedforthisonetoday · 24/10/2022 20:28

I’m another one with the unpopular opinion that Jeremy Bamber is innocent. It’s a case that has just never sat ‘right’ with me for some reason.

DanteThunderstone · 24/10/2022 21:31

I heard a theory that the French lady in Ireland might not have been murdered at all. Was it something like she could have been kicked by an animal and bled out? That seems unlikely now that I'm writing it down.

x2boys · 24/10/2022 23:25

Another one that haunts me is Andrew Gosden wtf happened to that poor lad from all accounts he was naieve,young, he was so bloody vulnerable.

GoGoose · 24/10/2022 23:35

XelaM · 24/10/2022 16:23

Omg me too! I used to be so interested in this case! I think he was framed by members of his extended family for the inheritance and it was the sister who committed the actual murders.

Rubbish.

sausage767 · 24/10/2022 23:48

Laiste · 24/10/2022 18:25

The Staircase: that was fascinating and awful. Wife falls down short flight of stairs, suffers unusually horrific head injuries and dies there slowly and alone. Bad enough. But you remain open minded. Strange things do happen sometimes ...

but then, the moment which always stuck with me, the reveal that this is the second of his wives to die falling down some stairs!

Not true, his first wife was alive at the time of his second wife’s death, she features in the documentary. It was a friend and neighbour who died. Michael found her at the bottom of the stairs, but her cause of death was natural (brain aneurysm, stroke etc not sure which),

sausage767 · 24/10/2022 23:52

On the Michael Peterson case, I’m not convinced it was him.

Also Sophie Toscan du Plantier, I can’t see Ian Bailey being responsible. I think he inserted himself into the circumstances because he liked the drama, then became the prime suspect.

David Bain is 100% guilty. It’s insane that he killed his whole family and got away scot free.

MyMonkiesHerCircus · 25/10/2022 00:13

Interesting article about Peterson's "friend" who died at the bottom of the staircase. She was the mother of his two adopted daughters.

www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a20963440/elizabeth-ratliff-death-murder-the-staircase-netflix-michael-peterson/

The dramatisation of The Staircase is a very good watch too. It was on Sky earlier this year, stars Toni Collette and Colin Firth.

whattodo2019 · 25/10/2022 00:25

I've just watched the case of Alvin and Kathy Liknes and their grandson who were bludgeoned, kidnapped and tortured. Their bodies were never found only fragments of bone and a baby tooth. It's horrific....

sicklycolleague · 25/10/2022 00:28

David Bain is 100% guilty and it’s so creepy he’s out. My mum saw him at the post office after he was released and she was absolutely shook

MummyInTheNecropolis · 25/10/2022 00:34

There’s a really good podcast about the Bain family called Black Hands, it left me convinced that David is guilty and shocked that anyone could think otherwise.

Aprilx · 25/10/2022 00:39

x2boys · 24/10/2022 16:05

The one that haunts mec8s Amy Lynn Bradley who disappeared from a cruise ship in 1998 ,was she kidnapped and sold into sex trafficking?
Did she fall overboard
Is she still alive,?

Me too, I often think about Amy since I first heard about her case a few years ago. I don’t think there is much chance that she went overboard, I think she was alive for some time afterwards but not any more. ☹️

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