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Controversial murder cases (true crime documentaries) - guilty or not guilty?

227 replies

XelaM · 24/10/2022 13:14

I went down the rabbit hole of watching a number of true crime series and a few of the horrid cases have stuck in my mind. For example:

Tim Hennis - the decorated senior military officer who was convicted of the unbelievably brutal murder of the wife and two small children (5 and 3 year-old girls) of a fellow officer Gary Eastburn.

It's the "Double Jeopardy" episode on the "Death Row Stories" on Prime (free). I really can't get my head around this case and I keep thinking he is innocent. It just doesn't make sense. He was happily married with an infant daughter whom he adored, a decorated war hero who has (before and after the initial conviction) lived an absolutely picture-perfect life with not a single black mark against his character. How can this be reconciled with someone who stabbed two infant children 15 times each for apparently no reason at all other than to brutally rape and also absolutely savagely murder their mother? There was a lot of DNA at the scene, which didn't match his - male DNA under the fingernails of the victims, pubic hair, blood etc. It appears absolutely everyone was convinced this was a wrongful conviction. But then over 20 years later, the one bit of DNA that matched was the sperm inside the mother. He says they had consensual sex a few days before the murders, which also doesn't quite ring true. I really don't understand this case. It's such a tragedy for both the Eastburn and the Hennis families.

David Bain - the only survivor of the Bain family murders in NZ. I watched the "Bain Family Murders" series on Channel 4 (it's still on All 4) - not a documentary, but it's apparently very close to the real events. David was the sole survivor of the massacre of his whole family - father, mother, two sisters aged 19 and 18 and younger brother aged 14.

David was the eldest of the children at 22 and was allegedly doing his paper round when the murders took place. There was a typed note on the family computer saying "Sorry you're the only one who deserved to stay". There has been a lot debate about whether it was David or his father Robin who committed the murders. But having looked at the evidence (from what's available online) I cannot believe that David Bain is now free to walk the streets. There was so much evidence that he was the one who killed his whole family. The younger brother put up a huge fight and David could never explain the fresh injuries he sustained that morning; David's bloodied gloves were used on the gun (why would the father use gloves if he wanted to commit suicide?); David's broken glasses were found in the brother's room; the brother had fibres from David's sweater under his finger nails; David claimed to have heard his youngest sister gurgle up blood which scientifically would only have been possible if he was the killer; the way the father allegedly killed himself was almost an impossible position to recreate (and why would he use a silencer to make it even more awkward to kill himself?); he washed his clothes before calling the police and there was a bloodied finger print on the washing machine etc etc etc. It's so strange to me that his conviction was quashed based on the testimony of a few witnesses who claimed the youngest daughter was making contradictory claims that the father had abused her (I don't think that was ever proven to be true).

The Menendez brothers - the two sons of the famous Hollywood producer who murdered both their parents. Were they spoiled rich boys only after their parent's fortune or tragic victims of sexual abuse in fear for their lives? This is another Channel 4 documentary (I watched it on catch up on All 4).

Another very bizarre case. The multimillionaire Hollywood producer (who I believe produced Rambo and possibly Rocky) had the perfect Beverly Hills life with his wife and two good-looking seemingly carefree, typical "rich boys" sons. Until one day both he and his wife were brutally gunned down in their home. The murder was so brutal that the police initially thought this was a mafia hit and no one suspected the sons until the younger one stupidly confided in a crooked psychologist. The prosecution believed their only motivation was greed and money because the father was allegedly going to cut them out of his will. However, during the trial, they brought a totally unexpected defence - that they had been the victims of the most cruel sexual abuse at the hands of their father since early childhood and that they feared for their lives because they were going to expose their father. The mother apparently knew and enabled him. The defence had 51 witnesses (friends and family members) all testify what a horrible bastard the father was and it appears everyone hated him. But was he really sexually abusing his sons and were they really in fear for their lives when they killed their parents or were they just greedy rich boys after their parents' money? I'm really torn on this case. On the one hand, it's quite telling that the whole family on both sides is supporting them and that 51 witnesses all testified to say the father was an arsehole and their own evidence was very believable on the stand; however, the comments made by the elder brother after the first trial (that they managed to fool the jury) and their general behaviour and demeanour makes me think they made it up.

Anyone else interested in controversial convictions? Any opinions on either of the above cases or any other similar cases?

Apologies for the extremely long post 😬

OP posts:
MostTacticalNameChange · 26/10/2022 18:51

The Tamla Horsford case is very fishy. A bunch of women have a boozy sleepover and she is found dead the next morning. Lots of changing stories and odd behaviour from the 'witnesses' and public concern it could have racist motives.

Kenneka Jenkins case is suspicious too. She died in a walk in freezer after partying with a bunch of people, who, similar to the above case, gave changing accounts.

Casey Anthony is a piece of work - she just seemed to find the whole investigation and trial funny.

Laci Peterson I do believe Scott was behind it but there is a lot that doesn't make sense and i did listen to a Timesuck episode which put across the possibility he didn't do it. But a pregnant wife going missing and washing up near her husband's favourite fishing spot not long after he had been fishing can't be coincidence. And the lying to his mistress that he was recently widowed...although I guess it wasn't a lie.

MayThe4th · 26/10/2022 18:56

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 08:18

You mean Casey Anthony?

Among others.

Sean Jenkins?

MostTacticalNameChange · 26/10/2022 18:56

MissTruecrime · 26/10/2022 18:39

Have you seen this one, so glad it’s being looked at again. No way would anyone commit suicide like this
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11166011/Cops-REOPEN-case-woman-stabbed-20-times-ruled-suicide-killer.html

That is insane. I hope there's some justice there.

There was a really good actress, Adrienne Shelley whose death was ruled a suicide but her fiance persisted until they actually looked a bit deeper. Can't imagine having to be so tenacious and persistent while grieving.

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 18:58

Christa Worthington is an interesting one as well, I'm not convinced they convicted the right person. The way in which is she was found with her 2 year old unharmed but left with her mum's body for days is absolutely heartbreaking.

MayThe4th · 26/10/2022 18:59

- Why do you think she's guilty? Apart from her demeanour that people didn't like and the "silly strings" video there appeared to have been neither motive nor much evidence that she staged the scene of an intrusion. Why would she only kill two of her kids and not all three of she wanted to kill the kids? And she must have beaten herself up pretty badly and then slashed her throat nearly dying. It's a bit of a flawed plan if all she wanted was the $5000 insurance claim. there was 0 evidence of a break-in. The dust in the garage where the intruder apparently left was untouched,

I’m guessing she only killed two of them because if she’d killed the baby then her husband would have been a witness. §

poweredbyplants · 26/10/2022 19:00

MostTacticalNameChange · 26/10/2022 18:51

The Tamla Horsford case is very fishy. A bunch of women have a boozy sleepover and she is found dead the next morning. Lots of changing stories and odd behaviour from the 'witnesses' and public concern it could have racist motives.

Kenneka Jenkins case is suspicious too. She died in a walk in freezer after partying with a bunch of people, who, similar to the above case, gave changing accounts.

Casey Anthony is a piece of work - she just seemed to find the whole investigation and trial funny.

Laci Peterson I do believe Scott was behind it but there is a lot that doesn't make sense and i did listen to a Timesuck episode which put across the possibility he didn't do it. But a pregnant wife going missing and washing up near her husband's favourite fishing spot not long after he had been fishing can't be coincidence. And the lying to his mistress that he was recently widowed...although I guess it wasn't a lie.

More to the Tamla Horsford case, she was the only WOC at the sleepover and this occurred in a town with a prolific history of white supremacy.

Darbs76 · 26/10/2022 19:01

XelaM · 26/10/2022 17:59

The Chris Watts case is incomprehensible! I watched the Netflix documentary and I actually posted about it on here because I simply couldn't believe what I saw/heard. The comment that the judge made at the Jeremy Bamber sentencing- that he was "evil almost beyond belief" - if ever that label fitted anyone it's Chris Watts!!!

He killed his entire family for someone he just met 5mins ago. She was more fun and he wanted to get rid of his (pregnant) wife and kids who adored him. Why didn't he just get a divorce?!?! But the most unbelievable thing about this case is the manner in which he killed the kids. I could understand it if he flipped out one night and in a rage killed his wife and kids whilst the kids were asleep. But no... he didn't kill the kids in their sleep at all.

What he did was first kill his wife during the night and then in the morning - absolutely coldly drive the two little girls (who sang "daddy is my hero" a few days ago and adored their dad) in the car together with their mother's body to the remote oil plant location and then absolutely coolly kill them one by one. This was not in a rage or because he lost control like so many family murders, it was absolutely cold premeditated murder in the hard light of day. The girls asked him "is mummy ok?" whilst they were driving for about an hour with her body in the car next to them! When they arrived at the oil plant, he first killed one of the girls and the older one started crying "Please don't kill me daddy". He then killed her as well. Then he dumped them in two separate oil tanks and proceeded with his day completely believing that he would get away with killing his whole family. What the actual fuck?!

Disgusting isn’t it. I watched so many of Shannan’s Facebook videos and he just seemed such a normal family guy. Even the police interviewers were a bit baffled by him. I listed to their tape when they went to the prison after he was convinced and got him to confess (at that point they thought the girls were killed in the house) and when you watch the neighbours video back you can see the kids shadow so he was telling the truth. Just why makes so sense, Shannan clearly had no clue he was even capable of an affair let alone murder of his wife and kids.

Catinabeanbag · 26/10/2022 19:14

There are some brilliant true crime podcasts out there if you're interested (and dont' have time to sit and watch netflix :D)

West Cork about the Sofie Toscan du Plantier case is really good.
The Boy in the Woods came out recently - Winifrid Robinson (she of Radio 4 fame) investigates the Rikki Neave case and how the police basically decided on day one that the mother had done it.
Casefile true crime - Australian series but covers crimes all over the world. Many are missing persons cases where bodies have never been found (such as the Beaumont children going missing from the beach in Aus) Well over 100 episodes to indulge in!
Mens Rea is quite good - mostly Irish cases, but still quite interesting.

MostTacticalNameChange · 26/10/2022 19:18

From the documentary, there is a lot of evidence Chris and Shannan weren't happy and there were money problems. But I think this was all due to him pulling away from her and family life and spoiling his mistress instead. There is speculation the mistress was a lot further in on it too but who knows now. He must have built up such a resentment to his family for "keeping him" from the life he wanted to have done that rather than just leave. Annihilating your family because you don't want to lose money or face - the fucking ego of it.

What is truly inconceivable is that he has 'fans' and is kept busy writing to them from jail. It shouldn't be allowed.

x2boys · 26/10/2022 19:20

I posted earlier in the thread about Chris Coleman ,who also murdered his wife and two sons ,as he had been having an affair wirh his wifes best friend ,he was working for an evangilist so didnt want to get a divorce ,so decidred to stage a break in and made out the family had been stalked and threatened for months

Naunet · 26/10/2022 19:29

OP, if you haven’t watched The Jinx, id highly recommend it, the best true crime documentary I’ve ever seen, mostly because of the end.

Chesneyhawkes1 · 26/10/2022 19:31

@Laiste if the tracks were in the middle of nowhere and no platform etc, she may well have laid across them.

People do unfortunately. If they are on the platform they tend to jump then.

DashboardConfessional · 26/10/2022 19:42

The Jinx is great!

I would dearly love to know what happened to Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers in Panama.

RiftGibbon · 26/10/2022 19:49

I've been reading about murders in Victorian times. Two that stand out are the Road "Hill House Murder", which did eventually elicit a confession of sorts, but even now, it feels debatable as to whether the person who confessed actually perpetrated the crime.
The other, which involved several of the dame member of the police force investigating was the murder of Thomas Briggs on a railway train. The person convicted seems to have been found guilty purely on flimsy circumstantial evidence.

XelaM · 26/10/2022 22:24

I just watched the Johnny Gosch documentary "Who took Johnny". I have no words for how the police behaved. It's so shocking! How they treated the poor mother and how they never found a connection between the three boys the exact same age who were all abducted in the exact same way in the same area within in space of about 2 years of each other; and how they never know even interviewed Paul Bonacci who very clearly either abducted Johnny or knew people who did abduct him. Absolutely infuriating. The mother is so strong and had so much unfair criticism over the years whereas she was fighting an impossible battle with law enforcement who (for whatever reason 🤔) absolutely refused to help her.

OP posts:
Bubblepunk · 27/10/2022 07:57

I went down the rabbit hole with the Darlie Routier case a couple of years ago after reading about it on here and periodically dip back in and I still can't work out if I think she's guilty or innocent. The information out there is so contradictory - one source says her wounds were deep and almost fatal, another says they were superficial and clearly self inflicted. One source says she and Darrin both failed polygraphs, another says she didn't take one. The sock in the alleyway is bizarre, if she was going to stage the scene why only leave that with only 2 spots of the boys' blood somewhere it could easily have been missed?

I'm leaning towards thinking she's innocent, there are crime scene photos out there where you can clearly see the police had contaminated the scene - there's a takeaway coffee cup on the draining board for example.

A theory I was thinking about which I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else was the possibility of it being mistaken identity from an intruder intending to target her sister who had been staying for 2 weeks prior to the murders. It was dark and if they had thought Dana was still staying there she'd be the one they would expect to find sleeping on the sofa

Laiste · 27/10/2022 12:29

Darlie Routier - i've read that one forensic report recorded blood from both the boys found on the back of her collar. The pattern consistent with splashes from the blade of a knife going up and down close to her head.

Laiste · 27/10/2022 12:30

The inside of her collar iirc.

Laiste · 27/10/2022 12:31

The inside of the back of her collar.

Jees it's a good job i'm not giving evidence!

Laiste · 27/10/2022 12:36

Wasn't her story that she and her boys were asleep on the sofa while the attack was going on though? She said she woke up and saw the intruder leaving, dropping knife ect.

Police were Confused by how she and they would sleep through being stabbed.

XelaM · 27/10/2022 13:55

Laiste · 27/10/2022 12:36

Wasn't her story that she and her boys were asleep on the sofa while the attack was going on though? She said she woke up and saw the intruder leaving, dropping knife ect.

Police were Confused by how she and they would sleep through being stabbed.

In the documentary she said she was awoken by the intruder and also possibly one of her sons. If she did do it, dis her husband help her stage the scene? It just seems like she wouldn't have had time to have staged such an elaborate scene and cut her own throat and leave the house to throw the bloody sock some distance from the property. He did fail the polygraph and had the insurance scam plans, but it would have made more sense to have Kilkenny Darlie for the $250K insurance claim than the $5000 insurance claim for the kids.

I also find it strange that the police thought there might have been an intruder in JonBenet Ramsey's case (still baffled by that 😳) but was so sure there wasn't one in Darlie's case.

OP posts:
XelaM · 27/10/2022 13:56

to have killed Darlie*

OP posts:
potniatheron · 27/10/2022 15:56

Asher33 · 26/10/2022 16:34

I think Jimmy Savile was involved in some of the Yorkshire Ripper's crimes. One of the victims' bodies were found in Savile's back garden. They were very close when the YR was in Broadmoor.

Out of interest do you have a source about the body being found in Savile's back garden?

Wicked Beyond Belief" by Michael Bilton

potniatheron · 27/10/2022 16:04

XelaM · 26/10/2022 16:21

Darlene Routier - Why do you think she's guilty? Apart from her demeanour that people didn't like and the "silly strings" video there appeared to have been neither motive nor much evidence that she staged the scene of an intrusion. Why would she only kill two of her kids and not all three of she wanted to kill the kids? And she must have beaten herself up pretty badly and then slashed her throat nearly dying. It's a bit of a flawed plan if all she wanted was the $5000 insurance claim.

Maddie McCann - The parents may be very unlikable, but I have never seen any real evidence that they were either involved in her disappearance or abused their kids. The documentaries about the case didn't really present any factual evidence against the parents.

JonBenet Ramsey - It absolutely wouldn't surprise me if there was abuse in that family and it was definitely the family that murdered her and covered it up. Probably the brother and the parents covered it up.

Andrew Gosden - He may have run away from home, but with whom and how did he just vanish? The police really messed up this search. There must have been so much CCTV available around Kings Cross at the time. I think he was lured into something sinister and unfortunately either a sex ring or by a psycho.

Hi Xela!

Darlie - because there's no evidence of any intruder and so, given the lack of positive evidence for an intruder and just going on statistics, young children who are killed are usually killed by either their stepfather/mother's boyfriend or secondly the biological mother.

Maddie - I saw a video Gerry had taken of Maddie that was oddly sexualised. She was in heavy make up and he was making her twirl around and repeat the word Daddy. It felt off. Plus, the consistent rumours about David Payne and the evidence given by one of their friends about his and Gerry's behaviour. I don't think this means they killed her by the way. But I do think there was abuse in the family.

Andrew Gosden - yes was groomed and lured away probably by an older man and is sadly probably no longer with us, the police did not do enough, it makes me very sad that one.

Asha - we need to remember that the sighting was a chance sighting by a long distance lorry driver driving by and he was not 100% firm on what he'd seen. It's one of those facts that I think has been given undue weight by internet sleuths - it may not have been Asha he saw at all. Either way, I again suspect abuse in the family or an unhappy home life and so she is vulnerable and lured away by a relative or long time acquaintance who sadly did not have their best interests at heart.

Bubblepunk · 27/10/2022 16:11

@Laiste yes I read that too, blood spatter which the prosecution claimed could only have come from Darlie having been the one to stab the boy's but I've also seen arguments which counteract that theory - I can't recall the details right now but it made sense to me. There are so many things which really cast doubt on the prosecution's case which I've seen no compelling counter evidence for that I can't view her as guilty - the claims of her having slit her own throat at the sink and apparently having denied going near the sink when Darlie and Darrin both told them she had put wet towels on the children's stab wounds, the knife found stabbed into the ground near the sock etc