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Controversial murder cases (true crime documentaries) - guilty or not guilty?

227 replies

XelaM · 24/10/2022 13:14

I went down the rabbit hole of watching a number of true crime series and a few of the horrid cases have stuck in my mind. For example:

Tim Hennis - the decorated senior military officer who was convicted of the unbelievably brutal murder of the wife and two small children (5 and 3 year-old girls) of a fellow officer Gary Eastburn.

It's the "Double Jeopardy" episode on the "Death Row Stories" on Prime (free). I really can't get my head around this case and I keep thinking he is innocent. It just doesn't make sense. He was happily married with an infant daughter whom he adored, a decorated war hero who has (before and after the initial conviction) lived an absolutely picture-perfect life with not a single black mark against his character. How can this be reconciled with someone who stabbed two infant children 15 times each for apparently no reason at all other than to brutally rape and also absolutely savagely murder their mother? There was a lot of DNA at the scene, which didn't match his - male DNA under the fingernails of the victims, pubic hair, blood etc. It appears absolutely everyone was convinced this was a wrongful conviction. But then over 20 years later, the one bit of DNA that matched was the sperm inside the mother. He says they had consensual sex a few days before the murders, which also doesn't quite ring true. I really don't understand this case. It's such a tragedy for both the Eastburn and the Hennis families.

David Bain - the only survivor of the Bain family murders in NZ. I watched the "Bain Family Murders" series on Channel 4 (it's still on All 4) - not a documentary, but it's apparently very close to the real events. David was the sole survivor of the massacre of his whole family - father, mother, two sisters aged 19 and 18 and younger brother aged 14.

David was the eldest of the children at 22 and was allegedly doing his paper round when the murders took place. There was a typed note on the family computer saying "Sorry you're the only one who deserved to stay". There has been a lot debate about whether it was David or his father Robin who committed the murders. But having looked at the evidence (from what's available online) I cannot believe that David Bain is now free to walk the streets. There was so much evidence that he was the one who killed his whole family. The younger brother put up a huge fight and David could never explain the fresh injuries he sustained that morning; David's bloodied gloves were used on the gun (why would the father use gloves if he wanted to commit suicide?); David's broken glasses were found in the brother's room; the brother had fibres from David's sweater under his finger nails; David claimed to have heard his youngest sister gurgle up blood which scientifically would only have been possible if he was the killer; the way the father allegedly killed himself was almost an impossible position to recreate (and why would he use a silencer to make it even more awkward to kill himself?); he washed his clothes before calling the police and there was a bloodied finger print on the washing machine etc etc etc. It's so strange to me that his conviction was quashed based on the testimony of a few witnesses who claimed the youngest daughter was making contradictory claims that the father had abused her (I don't think that was ever proven to be true).

The Menendez brothers - the two sons of the famous Hollywood producer who murdered both their parents. Were they spoiled rich boys only after their parent's fortune or tragic victims of sexual abuse in fear for their lives? This is another Channel 4 documentary (I watched it on catch up on All 4).

Another very bizarre case. The multimillionaire Hollywood producer (who I believe produced Rambo and possibly Rocky) had the perfect Beverly Hills life with his wife and two good-looking seemingly carefree, typical "rich boys" sons. Until one day both he and his wife were brutally gunned down in their home. The murder was so brutal that the police initially thought this was a mafia hit and no one suspected the sons until the younger one stupidly confided in a crooked psychologist. The prosecution believed their only motivation was greed and money because the father was allegedly going to cut them out of his will. However, during the trial, they brought a totally unexpected defence - that they had been the victims of the most cruel sexual abuse at the hands of their father since early childhood and that they feared for their lives because they were going to expose their father. The mother apparently knew and enabled him. The defence had 51 witnesses (friends and family members) all testify what a horrible bastard the father was and it appears everyone hated him. But was he really sexually abusing his sons and were they really in fear for their lives when they killed their parents or were they just greedy rich boys after their parents' money? I'm really torn on this case. On the one hand, it's quite telling that the whole family on both sides is supporting them and that 51 witnesses all testified to say the father was an arsehole and their own evidence was very believable on the stand; however, the comments made by the elder brother after the first trial (that they managed to fool the jury) and their general behaviour and demeanour makes me think they made it up.

Anyone else interested in controversial convictions? Any opinions on either of the above cases or any other similar cases?

Apologies for the extremely long post 😬

OP posts:
saltinesandcoffeecups · 25/10/2022 01:03

XelaM · 24/10/2022 20:17

Making a Murderer broke my heart for Stephen's poor poor parents 😭It definitely sounded like he and the nephew were innocent but I think all appeals have been rejected

So clearly you watched a slanted tv show and know better than those that sat through tweets of evidence….

Quite frankly you are all ghouls. You do know that there are dead people and the family’s that loved them right? But it’s ok they are exploited over and over again so you can get your jollies from playing amateur sleuth.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 25/10/2022 01:04

saltinesandcoffeecups · 25/10/2022 01:03

So clearly you watched a slanted tv show and know better than those that sat through tweets of evidence….

Quite frankly you are all ghouls. You do know that there are dead people and the family’s that loved them right? But it’s ok they are exploited over and over again so you can get your jollies from playing amateur sleuth.

Weeks of evidence even…

Waveacrossabay · 25/10/2022 01:08

@XelaM 'the prosecutors' podcast on darlie routier is fascinating, very in depth

XelaM · 25/10/2022 02:00

@saltinesandcoffeecups There have been MANY wrongful convictions over the years that have been proven to be wrong by DNA evidence. What do you say about those? I actually work in the criminal justice system and you can absolutely never be sure how a jury is going to decide and what could sway a jury. It's actually very difficult in long-running trials to take in all the evidence and things get missed or evidence never gets admitted in front if the jury.

OP posts:
CatWorm · 25/10/2022 02:00

The Disappearance of Johnny Gosch.

It’s stayed with me since falling down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories. A really bizarre case.

there’s documentary out there somewhere, used to be on Netflix I think, but not sure now.

XelaM · 25/10/2022 02:07

I watched the C5 documentary about Luke Mitchell. There was absolutely zero forensic evidence tying him to the extremely bloody scene. There was semen from another man and DNA from Jodi's sister's boyfriend on her but not Luke's. Luke had no injuries or blood at all in him whereas there clearly was a huge struggle and the killer would have been covered in blood and probably injured. He was just a weird outcast and easy prey for the media. And Luke had an alibi for the murder anyway.

OP posts:
XelaM · 25/10/2022 02:12

x2boys · 24/10/2022 23:25

Another one that haunts me is Andrew Gosden wtf happened to that poor lad from all accounts he was naieve,young, he was so bloody vulnerable.

Yes! It's inexplicable why he went to London that day and how he could have disappeared in a place with so much CCTV as Kings Cross Station. The police really botched this investigation. It's just as haunting as the Asha
Degree case. Both utterly tragic and completely inexplicable circumstances.

OP posts:
XelaM · 25/10/2022 02:16

XelaM · 25/10/2022 02:00

@saltinesandcoffeecups There have been MANY wrongful convictions over the years that have been proven to be wrong by DNA evidence. What do you say about those? I actually work in the criminal justice system and you can absolutely never be sure how a jury is going to decide and what could sway a jury. It's actually very difficult in long-running trials to take in all the evidence and things get missed or evidence never gets admitted in front if the jury.

And just to add... Stephen from Making a Murderer has actually spent 18 years of his life imprisoned for a crime he was proven to be completely innocent of and was about to receive millions in compensation from the state for falsely imprisoning him (before his rearrest for the new alleged murder)

OP posts:
saltinesandcoffeecups · 25/10/2022 02:33

Sure tell that to Teresa Halbach’s family. Fucking ghouls.

Her name was Teresa Halbach

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 25/10/2022 02:43

I watch a lot of True Crime documentaries.
In another life I think I’d like to be some sort of criminologist… !

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 25/10/2022 02:51

Posted too soon!
“I watch a lot of True Crime documentaries.
In another life I think I’d like to be some sort of criminologist!” - Said to me by a friend.

I think a lot of people see themselves as amateur sleuths. I think criminal psychologists do a bit more than watch a few documentaries on Netflix.

thelobsterquadrille · 25/10/2022 07:05

There's a reason true crime is so popular - there are millions of books, TV shows and documentaries on the subject. A fascination with the macabre and with "evil" has been around for centuries- millennia, even.

I really don't think it's ghoulish to be interested in stuff like this. It's human nature to be want to know what makes people "tick", to wonder about their motives and to wonder what happened to people who vanish.

SeemingOKToday · 25/10/2022 07:20

Jonbenet Ramsey gives me chills.

I've always thought it was the parents.

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 25/10/2022 07:41

@thelobsterquadrille

Yes!
This is interesting:

True crime gives an insight into our culture and norms as well as our anxieties and values. Researcher and author Coltan Scrivner states the popularity of true crime, the success of horror films and the quantity of violence in the news suggests that “morbid curiosity is a common psychological trait”

Also this:
www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/why-are-we-so-obsessed-with-true-crime/

NameChangeLifeChange · 25/10/2022 07:47

What do people think of Adnan Syed (Serial) being released recently? Serial was so interesting and I went back and forth but ultimately thought he must have done it due to lack of motive for anyone else and his complete amnesia of the events of that day. There was a serious lack of evidence though and even if he was not guilty what a waste of life in prison. And so so sad for Hae’s parents who I don’t think will ever know what truly happened to their daughter which is heart breaking.

Judijudi · 25/10/2022 07:54

The podcast Teacher’s Pet is fascinating I’m only half way in but I’m hooked.

HRTQueen · 25/10/2022 07:56

that no one has been caught for the murders of two girls aged 15 Abigail Williams and Liberty German known as the Delphi murders

the podcast Down The Hill really got to me

i can’t get my head around that there is so much evidence (video and voice both only a second or two long) and DNA. This happened in a very small tight knit community but no one knows anything. One of the girls filmed him very briefly as he walked towards them so they must have felt uncomfortable and then taped him as he was telling them to walk Down The Hill

how could now one recognise this man

bloodyplanes · 25/10/2022 07:59

SeemingOKToday · 25/10/2022 07:20

Jonbenet Ramsey gives me chills.

I've always thought it was the parents.

Definitely the brother, covered for by the parents.

nothingmuchaboutjerry · 25/10/2022 08:06

Jeremy Bamber. I believe his latest appeal may be successful, and the only reason why the British justice system has dragged its feet is because they will owe him thousands in compensation. It also complicated things for the family who made a claim to the inheritance Jeremy would be entitled to as a free man.

Jeremy resides in my place of work and whilst I've never seen him, by all accounts he's a model prisoner. Had he been convicted today, I do not believe he would have been given a whole life order.

GoGoose · 25/10/2022 08:11

nothingmuchaboutjerry · 25/10/2022 08:06

Jeremy Bamber. I believe his latest appeal may be successful, and the only reason why the British justice system has dragged its feet is because they will owe him thousands in compensation. It also complicated things for the family who made a claim to the inheritance Jeremy would be entitled to as a free man.

Jeremy resides in my place of work and whilst I've never seen him, by all accounts he's a model prisoner. Had he been convicted today, I do not believe he would have been given a whole life order.

So it is about the length of sentence then. His guilt is beyond reasonable doubt. He murdered five people.

DashboardConfessional · 25/10/2022 08:12

HRTQueen · 25/10/2022 07:56

that no one has been caught for the murders of two girls aged 15 Abigail Williams and Liberty German known as the Delphi murders

the podcast Down The Hill really got to me

i can’t get my head around that there is so much evidence (video and voice both only a second or two long) and DNA. This happened in a very small tight knit community but no one knows anything. One of the girls filmed him very briefly as he walked towards them so they must have felt uncomfortable and then taped him as he was telling them to walk Down The Hill

how could now one recognise this man

This is the one I was going to mention. I still check to see of they've arrested anyone. They never released the cause of death.

HRTQueen · 25/10/2022 08:16

DashboardConfessional I still check too. Someone has to know

they were younger than 15 Abby was 13 and Libby 14

AnneofRedGables · 25/10/2022 08:37

@x2boys @XelaM Did you know there were some developments in the Andrew Gosden case late last year? I really hope the family get some closure in the not too distant future.

MayThe4th · 25/10/2022 08:38

I think sometimes we believe people must be innocent because we can’t imagine how say, a mother could murder their children. As mothers this is incomprehensible.

Darlie routier is 100% guilty. I fail to see why anyone believes she isn’t.

I believe Andrew Gosden deliberately ran away. Obviously no-one knows what happened to him after he reached London, but he deliberately bought a one way ticket there.

Thing is family will always come out and express their shock, sadness, incredulity that this could happen, but nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors, and none of us knows what Andrew may have had to run away from.

whattodo2019 · 25/10/2022 08:56

x2boys · 24/10/2022 23:25

Another one that haunts me is Andrew Gosden wtf happened to that poor lad from all accounts he was naieve,young, he was so bloody vulnerable.

I often think of Andrew's disappearance. Was he lured to London for sex trafficking?