To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

There is usually a sliding scale - warning, followed by a negative, followed by removal if continued. Or some variation of that.

Again, usually teachers are aware of things like organisational issues surrounding pens etc. This would be something we'd flag if a student repeatedly didn't have a pen - not to get them in to trouble, but for pastoral to investigate/solve

Exactly, mine too, only I went to school through the 60's and 70's. If I got detention it was my fault be cause I chose to break a rule and my mother would have said the same which was true.

@LaGioconda I'll use your example of a child with organisational issues.

The pastoral support staff would ensure that the child is equipped with the correct uniform and equipment at the beginning of everyday before lessons begin. Once that was sorted, it was then the child's responsibility to ensure that they looked after their equipment for the day. If they lost a pen or forgot their blazer in the playground, for example, then they would be sanctioned as per the policy.

For some schools that's a straight detention, for others it may be a warning and then detention issued if it happens again. The point is, whatever the policy that the school adopts, it needs to be applied to every student.

Students that struggle to meet those expectations should have support in place, but if they consistently fall below par despite the additional support, then they need to suffer the consequences.

Those claiming that not having a pen isn’t a big issue are failing to see the bigger picture. I taught 5 classes today and around a third of the kids in these classes didn’t have a pen. I must have wasted about 25 minutes of learning time looking for pens to give them. Who exactly are you suggesting funds the equipment? In case you haven’t seen the news recently, schools don’t have enough money as it is. Not all of the pens I gave out were returned either, there’s always a few going missing or being taken each lesson. Have you thought about what happens when there aren’t any pens left and those children sit there not doing any work or disrupting the learning of others? Of course, not one of these kids had forgotten their phone! I’m sorry but this shows me that their organisational skills aren’t that bad!

Having no pen is an issue, but usually I ask them to ask someone else. I have given up funding it myself. I've spent my own money on black biros, only to have them take them apart, 'explode, them, or to not give them back. What I'm saying is, I wouldn't initally make anything of it, but if it was repeated, I would refer it.

Haha good point about phones!!

Exactly - as I quoted above, DD's school is OFSTED 'outstanding' (not that this necessarily means it would have been the best for her needs), consistently tops the local schools in absolute results and in progress, sends pupils to Oxbridge/Russell Group AND has a fantastic SEN Dept.

And doesn't have ridiculously strict rules about uniform etc

They are strict about the way pupils treat staff and each other - but not in a punitive way, they start from the point of view that the disrespectful/hurtful behaviour was not necessarily meant to be disrespectful/hurtful, and explain why it was. Make clear this is not the way to treat others, and hear the pupil's reasons/views. Make clear what change is expected.

If it continues, then it gets taken further, with parents involved, and detentions etc a possibility.

They absolutely do not accept disrespectful or disruptive behaviour, but deal with it constructively.

There seems to be a ridiculous dichotomy on this thread between punitive approach to the most minor of mistakes = good behaviour and results vs a free for all and a failing school.

@Sigma33 that approach sounds brilliant, yet only works when parents are supportive of education.

There seems to be a ridiculous dichotomy on this thread between punitive approach to the most minor of mistakes = good behaviour and results vs a free for all and a failing school.

Because the people making these points have actually worked in these types of schools and seen it first hand.

As @Hercisback said, the type of school your DD goes to only works when there's parental backing. Unfortunately, that's not the case in every school.

Unfortunately, that's not the case in every school.

Which you can see on this thread.

I was quoting the first paragraph but it didn't bold when I posted my comment.

But yes, I'm one of the posters that has been making the point about deprived inner city schools

I realised. Sorry - I wasn't having a go! I'm in agreement with you! 😊

@withaspongeandarustyspanner I figured! But for anyone else reading I didn't want them to think I made the first point 😩

Is just parental backing - or is it to do with socio economic background, deprived areas, poverty related stress in families, long hours working in very physically demanding jobs - leaving parents utterly exhausted. Do we get schools in wealthy leafy suburbs with large amounts of parents not showing up and not providing educational backing?

@remoteblanket children in all the circumstances you've just mentioned, should still have parental backing. None of those are excuses for a child turning up to school with incorrect uniform or lack of equipment, particularly if these kids have been provided with it (they should be for low income families etc).

Being tired after a long day of work doesn't give you an excuse to not prepare your child for school the next day. In my opinion though, an 11 year old should be able to prepare their bag without having their parent do it for them. A mere reminder should be enough, although many kids still need a nudge.

That's where schools come in. Strict policies such as no equipment = detention. This means that students are more proactive in sorting their shit out rather than having their parent do it for them.

Not sure about that. Obviously difficult to know, but the school is average for FSM and EHCP - not that either means parents are disengaged.

DD has talked about a friend who has to miss school sometimes to look after a younger sibling because parents are working and they can't afford child care. Plus the friend was talking about domestic abuse

I reported it to school in case it needed follow up - obviously made clear I didn't expect them to give me any info, I was telling them in case they could support the friend and family, and they were appropriately vague. But their response made me think they knew about the situation.

It is a very diverse London school.

Really?

DD is now in year 10 and has finally been able to organise herself with help from her specialist TA.

She still occasionally leaves a bit of uniform behind when she changes for dance class. If it is a sock or shirt then of course she has a clean one for the next day. But sometimes a shoe, which means she doesn't have a replacement.

Thankfully her school has a sense of proportion and as long as she puts it right as soon as reasonably possible it is not a problem.

Her previous school was the opposite, and her mental health was significantly damaged - she was doing her best (as I was) but kept failing

Forgetting a shoe, really? Please tell me this hasn't happened more than once.

You seem like a parent whose very on the ball and as a teacher we appreciate you.

However, depending on your child's needs, if she was continuously forgetting things then a detention would warrant.

She has the support in place to make sure she has what she needs in the first place, so she needs to be responsible for those things otherwise you'll be spending a lot of money on replacement shoes.

Diverse doesn't mean deprived. Deprived schools have above average FSM and PP students. Your DDs school isn't deprived, I'd guess the majority are supportive of education and their approach works. However when the majority of students and parents aren't supportive of education, your DDs school approach doesn't work. Unless you have seen a school with unsupportive parents it is difficult to imagine. We have some parents act deliberately against the school.
If schools were funded better and had support services available (like they used to), I think we'd see more schools with a therapeutic approach because there would be the resources to tackle the root cause of some behaviour issues. Sadly this isn't the case, so a strict approach is needed to ensure a good learning environment.

DD has executive functioning difficulties (her record was losing 3 pairs of shoes in a month...) among other support needs. Her school spent 3 x 2-hour sessions with her before she started, and had an EHCP application in place after a couple of months of collecting evidence.

It is in line with the Borough average for FSM and PP.

Their approach is in line with what has been learnt about neuro-science in the past 20-30 years. An approach which was taken in the state comp I went to in the 1980s - teachers treat pupils as human beings and the relationships/ connections they make are crucial to their pupils' development.

As I said, disruption and disrespect are not tolerated. But that doesn't mean the ridiculous, petty and punitive approach that so many people on this thread seem to claim that is the only way to avoid a descent into anarchy.

There are thousands of teachers who are doing amazing work every day, educating young people not only in their subject matter, but also in being good citizens and members of the community, who genuinely enjoy their interactions with young people (including the challenging ones).

I am grateful to those who see and act on the underlying principles rather than a slavish devotion to 'it's the rule so punish if you don't meet it' approach.

And recognise that it starts with the school leadership to set and live up to the ethos of the school.

But haven't you just criticised teachers whilst recognising that these rules come from the leadership? You say that some are slavishly devoted to punitive approaches but again, it comes from the leadership.

Also, you seem to be saying that any teacher who agrees with or supports the behaviour system does not genuinely enjoy interactions with students. This is quite incorrect. Being a teacher with good behaviour management does not mean you don't have good relationships with students.

You've summed it up so well.

I'm a better teacher because of the punitive rules in place. It would be great if I worked in a diverse school where all the kids had stable homes and supportive parents, so I wouldn't have to adopt a punitive approach.

However, I work in a very diverse school where the stringent rules are needed. I actually LOVE my new school where there is no room for manoeuvre. I have very positive interactions with my students and I've fostered a safe learning environment because kids know what to expect. Pupils with no stability at home need it at school down to the minutest thing like uniform.

Where there was too much flexibility in my old school, I actually hated my job and I'm sad to say it reflected in my lessons. I hardly did practicals and the kids could tell I was fed up.

I think it's ridiculous when the students don't have pens but always have phones

It is really important parent's support and reinforce the school's policies. It is not unreasonable to expect pupils to come ready to learn and, it may seem petty to an adult, it is essential to have very firm boundaries and expectations at secondary school. If parents don't respect it then the children don't respect it either and that leads to bigger behavioural issues.

As the children get older they will get a lot more freedom, but if the school is having issues like bullying etc, that is probably why they are being particularly consistent and strict with all aspects and levels of learning behavior.

Parents undermining it does not help.