To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

What a great way to show that you welcome a debate and aren't closed minded.

Yes, I was rude to you once meanwhile there were many times that you continued to insult me and others.

I think you're the one who doesn't like being called out as you're the one disappearing.

I've basically been told to shut up and fuck off, I then choose to do just that, but that makes me closed minded. I literally can't win! I do welcome a debate, but not with people who are condescending and insinuate anyone who doesn't agree with them are thick or "it's all in their head"

Why would I debate with someone like that? Would you?

Why debate with someone who is going to call you thick unless you agree? What does anyone gain from that?

I'm sure if I told someone their opinion doesn't matter because it's all in their head, insinuated they are thick etc it wouldn't go down well, but if you're a teacher, that's absolutely fine.

Perhaps when schools realised they had to teach children how to behave because so many parents think rules and boundaries are a diabolical infringement of human rights, as evidenced by much of this thread. You try teaching thirty teenagers who have been brought up to think they can interrupt adults and that they don’t have to follow any instructions they don’t like because they can get away with it at home.

You still haven't given a rational counter argument beyond kids being taught "useful" stuff. We've argued that kids are taught useful stuff in school, contrary to your 'opinion' (facts). You want to rid schools of Pythagoras and teach mortgages (which are already covered). People have also argued about why we have a broad curriculum early on which then narrows so students can specialise. Without that broad base, no one would know what to specialise in, or have the skills needed to specialise. Without understanding how memory works this is difficult to accept.

I think your experience of school is limited to yours and your children. That is a very small sample size and may not be representative of the national experience.

@Alighttouchonthetiller this is so true.

The behaviour at my old school was so bad that kids were swearing at staff and parents were justifying it.

Countless times parents would ring in to argue back about the detention their child was given, because their kid lied to them and claimed they never misbehaved. And parents believed them.

That happens so often, particularly with schools that have become academies. Some headteachers tend to make a massive issue about uniform because that's an easy win, whereas actually improving teaching and learning is much harder. Then they're surprised because if anything teaching has got worse because teachers are having to waste so much time on whether the children are wearing the right shoes and similar nonsense.

So long as we can have a third option of a school with sensible rules and sensible amounts of homework, and either no uniform or a basic uniform enforced with a sensible amount of flexibility. That would be a far more valid comparison.

@LaGioconda the problem with flexibility is that it leads to too many grey areas.

Too many warnings are given to students without consequences. They then realise they can get away with certain behaviours, so the behaviour of the school in general spirals out of control.

I've worked in a school like this.

I now work in a school where the expectations are very clear cut. If those expectations are not followed then consequences, such as, detentions are put into place.

The kids know what is expected of them and they know what will happen if they don't meet them. This means behaviour is impeccable and no time is wasted in the classroom giving out pens to students, for example.

It was stricter when I was at school 80/90's its only now people go to papers etc
Yes we got detentions and just went to them , no big deal
And if I had a detention and told my mum I had one, she would of said well your own fault then , suck it up

I agree @Alighttouchonthetiller

The problem with teaching Finance in Year 8 and Year 9 is that dcs don't need to use that information till they leave school - would they really remember the information when they actually need it?
My ds did a finance course in Year 12, he got a B - you'd think that would help him make good financial decisions when he went to Uni - it seems not, we still had to walk him through the myriad of choices (which we didn't mind doing) - he passed the exam though so according to the school that's success in the bag, course done - dc should be accomplished. I don't know what the solution is but it seems that a lot of information does not stick longer than the time it takes to pass an exam and passing an exam is the only measure of success. Totally expect a teacher to come along now and attack my dc (as that's how teachers usually behave on this site rather than considering how to make information stick.)

@remoteblanket
You’re right to an extent but it leads into a qualification at GCSE level and is taught at Y8/9 level as a foundation for the Y10/11 course.
Basic money management is covered with the younger groups - they don’t learn how to buy and sell stocks and shares! 😃

Just to add, I think that along with many courses at GCSE, there not enough focus on ‘the real world’.

Totally expect a teacher to come along now and attack my dc (as that's how teachers usually behave on this site rather than considering how to make information stick

wow. Attack teachers whilst accusing them of doing the same thing? Charming.

Putting things into long term memory for recall at the appropriate moment is complex and difficult. Blaming teachers who have massive content to teach and sod all time for consolidation and revision isn’t helpful. Same as it isn’t helpful for me to say well, if he’d learnt it properly he would have had the information to hand when he needed it. We can only take things so far and one thing we can’t do is learn it for them….

If your son studied finance, presumably much of it was theoretical with examples thrown in which would lack the nuance of individual reality. lots of us can study and pass an exam on that basis. Application in the real world is way more complex and down to far more complex and numerous issues other than ‘making it stick’.

I would argue that all things finance are the responsibility of the parents, and certainly in a modern world of Google, there is information out there to help us take individual responsibility for our decisions. But hey ho, don’t let that stop you sticking the boot into teachers, eh?

But you didn't get detentions for every minor infraction like you do now. Well not in my school, anyway. In my school you got a lunchtime detention as a first sanction for things like not handing homework in on time (and you'd have to do it more than once). I got a lunchtime detention in each of my first three years at secondary - each time because of not doing homework. Once. Each year.

The next sanction was a Friday night detention. I can't remember anyone getting one unless they were rude to the teachers - maybe one or two girls in the whole of the school. It was a scary sanction. I have no idea what came after that!

I am not sure what happened if you didn't comply with the uniform but I don't think they were that ridiculous about it. For example, the PE uniform involved navy shorts. When I started, I had some navy shorts with white stripes on them and my parents said they'd do for secondary as well. Nobody ever said anything. Nowadays you'd spend a day in isolation. What on earth is the point?

I'm not originally British, I understand "when in Rome...", but certain stuff drives me bonkers.
I wholeheartedly agree that kids must bring the right kit, respect teachers, do the homework and submit assignments. But school complaining that my child's hair is too short? FFS its No.2, not a rainbow mohawk.
Or school calling me at work that my kid showed up in trainers. Like what am I supposed to do right now? Drop everything? Send him home or give him detention, but why are you bothering me? Why not call his father at work as well?
And don't start me on the colour of socks.

Flexibility really doesn't lead to grey areas. If you have, for instance, a rule that uniform consists of trousers or skirt and a jumper in plain grey, black or navy blue, a plain coloured shirt, and shoes or trainers in plain dark colours that are not sandals and don't have heels, that works fine and saves hours of arguments. Likewise, if you have rules around behaviour that don't leap to detentions for even the most minor infringements, that actually works better because you aren't devaluing detentions. If you allow exceptions for disability, they you don't find yourself being hauled up before the SEN and Disability Tribunal.

The problem is schools that are absolutely rigid, have irrational rules around wearing blazers in hot weather and similar, and have a rigid ladder of sanctions which is never varied even in the most deserving case. Those tend to be the schools which end up with unacceptably high exclusion levels, and unacceptably high proportions of children belonging to minority groups being targeted and excluded. Given that many schools with a flexible approach manage to educate very successfully without wasting so much time on enforcing petty rules, we need to learn from them.

I disagree. I worked in a school that was really strict. Very black and white, rules-wise. No grey areas. They hardly ever excluded a pupil. Certainly no more than another, less strict school I worked in.

They did expect us to sweat the small stuff. The school wasn't for everyone - some people opted to go elsewhere. And it was in a very deprived area and had very good results.

Given that many schools with a flexible approach manage to educate very successfully without wasting so much time on enforcing petty rules, we need to learn from them

Look at the areas they serve, usually a higher socio economic background and parents that value education.

However in deprived communities the story is very different. A quick Google of P8 results this year shows the stricter schools with the better results from deprived communities.

There is one anomonly in a steiner school with 25 kids in the whole year group and we'll below average ks2 scores so progress will be higher.

@LaGioconda the only exceptions that work are ones for disability/medical/SEN. Any flexibility beyond that definitely leads to grey areas.

Like @withaspongeandarustyspanner I work in a school that expects staff to sweat the small stuff and it really works. It's an inner city school with children from some of the most deprived areas in the city and stringent rules works. Behaviour is exceptional, there is literally no arguing with students in lessons about rules which means no lesson time wasted, therefore great results.

I've worked in a school in a deprived area where there was too much flexibility. Kids were constantly unprepared with the wrong uniform or lack of equipment. They then became defiant because some teachers let them get away with it whereas others didn't. This led to talking back, rudeness, and therefore poor behaviour. Other normally good kids would see this and emulate it because they knew they'd get away with it. Eventually the behaviour of the school as a whole spiralled out of control.

Why vary sanctions? @LaGioconda The rules are the same for everyone, so the sanctions should be too.

What makes Jimmy's lateness warrant a detention but Joe only gets a slap on the wrist?

Irt blazers in hot weather, my school has no blazer days when it's really warm so kids don't have to ask to take them off. Outside they don't have to wear them either.

I mean principally varying sanctions according to the offence. Some schools impose detentions for absolutely everything, whether it's failing to do up the tie properly or something much more serious. But it also makes sense to have a sliding scale - i.e. a warning the first time the tie isn't done up and escalating if it persists.

There also need to be variations to cater for disability. Some schools are incredibly rigid about, for instance, uniform rules, and will punish the child with sensory sensitivity for failing to wear a blazer or tight uniform shoes even when it is literally painful to him. Others fail to recognise that children with ADHD and dyslexia will have organisational difficulties, so when they punish them for forgetting their pen they are literally punishing them for having a disability.