Dm said she’s never seen a child as bad before as Dd

[Allweatewasspaghettihoops]

Parents are here to stay, Dd just 4 has always been energetic but not hugely difficult in behaviour. Since around March, we saw some changes and the last few months she’s having fairly bad meltdowns and is speaking not that nicely and being impatient and shouting/crying a lot, plus wanting things her own way.
Shes been over excited because they’re here and has also had less sleep. We’ve been going out everyday and today we got up as usual and went to get ready. As I was doing her hair, she completely lost it, screaming and crying and saying I was doing it wrong, each time I kept trying to do what I thought she was asking, I was getting it more wrong and she was getting more upset.
I tried really hard to keep my patience, but I admit I felt out of control and just could not calm her down at all. I ended up sitting away a little on the bed and crying in frustration.
Dm came up looking really shaky and upset and almost crying and asked if I was ok and all was ok, she put her hand on my shoulder.
I ended up being able to calm her down and we lay cuddled together. I was so emotionally drained and feel like I’m walking on eggshells sometimes with her behaviour.
This afternoon I was talking to dm and she was saying none of us were anything like that and that she’s worked in a nursery and never seen a child get like that…ever 😢
She says I should go to the doctor with her asap.
I agree that this mornings episode was v intense and probably the worst I’ve had as she looked like something was driving her and she literally couldn’t stop. But I’m feeling really shocked and upset by the way Dm has described it all and I’m really worried now.
Does this sound really terrible for a just turned 4 year old?

Sounds very much like my nearly four year old DD. I think it’s so much about control - they have such little control in their lives at this stage and they get easily frustrated and are then unable to regulate their emotions.

My daughter is always in a dreadful mood and appears to behave terribly when the grandparents come over.

My MIL once timed the length of my DD’s tantrum… I didn’t know it at the time but I did notice her just observing the whole thing which was just weird - no offers of help! When my daughter eventually calmed down and melted into my arms for a cuddle, my MIL checked her watch and told me the total length of the tantrum (45 minutes).

You say your mum ‘s not one to interfere. You also say she told your DD off for making a road out of toilet roll. That’s interfering, and also ridiculous. If you’re happy for her to do it, we’ll it’s none of her business.

I don’t know what’s going on with your DD, but it seems your parents visiting is causing both of you stress. Kids react so much to even the slightest atmosphere.I’m not suggesting they’re not lovely, or worried but maybe some shorter or day visits/trips might help in this phase. You might decide you need to get more support but it will after you have had some space to think it through.

I think your dad said something which made her come and poke her nose in while Dd was upset. It’s an oddly intrusive and unhelpful thing to do from someone who is supposed to be good with children. You and your daughter had to go out for a drive to get some peace. Notice your own coping mechanisms, they point to your parents upsetting her not autism or adhd. Do they criticise in front of her? Does she experience that when they aren’t there?

Also - if you are feeling judged on your ability as a parent, your DD may well be picking up on your tension. I think it will be better when your parents leave. In the meantime, just do what you'd normally do when you take her out.

Ot sounds like she's trying to push boundaries and see how farxshe can go, how much she can push ans what she can get away with. At that age they also do this to work out what presses your buttons. Whilst from experience some qre more determined than others, it doesn't sound particularly worrying behaviour for the age. Being tired will always make things worse and having others present is q sure sign for a child who is testing to go overboard in q tantrum because they think they will "beat you'. They're always worse in company at that stage because they know you are more likely to give in to keep the peace.
Unfortunately lots of grandparents have unfortunately selective memories so I really wpuld take the gommentsxwoth a pinch of salt, at least for the tome being.

Hi OP, I've not RTWT so hopefully not repeating what has already been said.

I know how hard it is to deal with these meltdowns. My DD is (nearly) 8 and has always been a polite well behaved child on the whole but has always had these huge meltdowns. And I understand how it can be triggered by hair brushing.

Very different to bad behaviour or tantrums, and unless you have a child who goes through them regularly, hard to differentiate.

The good news is, they've DEFINITELY got better and fewer over time. She's such a lovely girl but just cannot deal or handle big emotions. She's learning though and a lot more conscious of her behaviour and we are way more conscious of her triggers. School and friends have never seen that side of her and almost don't believe me!

Last year I even considered getting professional help for her/us.

However, there has been an even bigger improvement over the last year and (touch wood) she is SO much better with her emotions and meltdowns.

Sorry long winded, but just trying to say that although it won't hurt to get professional help, she'll maybe mellow as she gets older.

Honestly? 99% chance it's a phase and will pass!

I had four children and now one toddler grandchild (already capable of epic tantrums) and have worked in Early Years for many many years.

You have the perfect storm going on: new to preschool, 4 years old, Grandparents visiting for far too long
Disruption to routine, not enough sleep, not enough downtime...

4 year olds can be very challenging (I had one with autism, and another with ADHD so really get it) Mine had some EPIC tantrums at that age. They'd hold it together at preschool then come home and BAM... all hell let loose!

It will pass....she will get used to the demands of preschool, the GP will go home and in the next year she will develop more skills to cope with her big emotions.

In the mean time, you just need to hold on to yours. Trying to placate a child mid tantrum is pointless... tantrums thrive on an audience so don't be one. Walking away calmly is very very hard, but also the quickest way to bring it to a halt. Lower your expectations and ignore the GP expectations, and don't put your dd in a situation where you don't think she will cope!

Some kids are 'easy' ..naturally calm. Other's are not and it doesn't mean they 'have something wrong' it means they just need time and calm parenting to get through it. My explosive child had epic tantrums when he was small... improved massively as he grew, then hit his teens and had the same tantrums only in an adult body (punched holes in walls etc et) BUT he eventually matured into a really laid back guy :)

Sounds like typical overtired 4 year old tantrums to me. Added to excitement and change of routine with grandparents staying. It sounds like she needs some down time.

DS has been so difficult from around age 3.5. So much easier now he's started school and approaching 5.

@Itisbetter She said she came up as she was worried 🤷🏻‍♀️That’s why I’m worried, because she obviously thought it was so bad to come up, then they were quiet most of the day, I honestly felt like I’d done something wrong

From what I read you have an over tired, overstimulated, out of routine four year old, who is at the age to start pushing boundaries?

This is exactly what I’m reading too. Your mum sounds way overdramatic as does your dad and you’re being very reactive too. I get that your reactions are heightened because your know your parents are judging you and it is causing anxiety. And there does seems to be a lot of anxiety going on in your household atm.

Your dd has also had a lot of change recently in her life and it is no wonder that she is reacting so strongly. Tbh it sounds as if you could all do with calming down. You, as her mummy, need to hold any big feelings for her, rather than to feel out of control or desperate. It is fine to cry and be upset. However, Grandma and mummy crying because they feel everything is out of control is big, scary stuff to a little, tiny girl.

As for asking your dd why she reacts the way she did, that’s way way too grown up for her to even process. My dd is 14 and I am sure if she reacted like your dd today and I asked her why, she wouldn’t be able to vocalise this either.

Sort her sleep/exercise so its better, don’t overstimulate her (ie rushing at the last minute to get ready) and things should start to feel calmer. Focus on the basics.

Yes, agreed. If your parents are sat there waiting impatiently and you are feeling judged and you get frustrated, you will be transferring those feelings onto your dd. Your dd will act them out. I think you’re living what you learned as your parents are doing it to you too.

I will just say one thing about getting ready at the last minute, this actually worked really well for my dd when she was young primary and getting her ready for school. She went through a lot of anxiety and was close to school refusing. We, however, were by ourselves and I whirlwinded her into her clothes and didn’t give her time to think of her hair, which is a major trigger point for her. She actually fits a lot of the ASD description, but not all, above - socks, hyper focused on hair etc.

One of DD’s tantrums around that age was when I was staying with my DB and his husband.

It was awful.

They still talk about it to this day!

As I say though, it was age and stage. She is not like it at all now.

Honestly - keep being firm but loving, make the boundaries clear and be consistent.

I’d be very surprised if this is any sort of serious thing to be worried about long term.

This sounds like a DM problem, it sounds like she has no confidence in you and when they come to stay, it knocks you off kilter, which in turn knocks DD off kilter never mind also upsetting her routine by not sleeping as much, waking early. Of course she's kicking off, she's not sleeping as much, she has a GM who's telling her she's naughty for having a toilet paper road when her own mother said it was fine and then the melodramatics 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

I cannot believe that a woman who has worked in nurseries part time is shakey and upset by an overtired 4 year old's meltdown. Your DM would want to get off the stage and stop putting ideas in your head that there's something wrong and I would certainly put this down to their presence in your home if it kicks up a notch when they're there. Also, she's just started pre school, that's a lot of change and her teacher is an independent observer, she would have said something if this behaviour is problematic at school. Your daughter kicks off with you because you are the safe space. You don't have to make it nice or perfect for judgemental guests or panic that your 4 year old is not ready on time. Relax, don't give a damn what they think and I'm sure Dad's behaviour will shift a bit. She probably does pick up that your nervy or anxious about wanting to be nice enough for your parents.

DD is overwhelmed, overstimulated and overtired. If she needs a day at home and not running off with GPs boring cafes then let her. Do what she needs, not them.

I cannot believe that a woman who has worked in nurseries part time is shakey and upset by an overtired 4 year old's meltdown.

This ^^ So much this ⬆️

Your Mum should be sympathising, helping, stepping in with a firm but loving hand to to calm the waters.

Not making things worse.

I remember one if mine having huge tantrums at the age. One went on for hours! He is the loveliest teenager you could ever meet

Its probably worse with her staying there if you're on edge. Sounds like she's knocking your confidence. Kids can pick up when you're stressed.

Maybe that’s what she needs, someone who can show her boundaries rather than letting things slide. It’s easier to let things slide in the short term but creates more issues down the line.

I have a 3.5 yo and he embarrassed me in front of all the nursery parents last week while we were queuing to drop them off (I must now forget about all the party invites as we won't get any as it was such a show or perhaps move towns and start all over again). He had a epic tantrum and I had sweat trickling down my face trying to manage the situation. For the past few months, he decides to pick a moment where I'd wish the floor can just swallow us and we can come back start all over again and delete that scene. He is a big character with very big emotions. I thought last year was worse but that was physically bad as he was active, trying to keep up with him etc. but this year it is mentally exhausting. He too started pre school this September. Everything is a "no". He even tosses and turns saying "no" in his sleep. I've read somewhere that kids at that age they bottle up their feelings all day at school as they try their best to be on their best behaviour and once they get home to their safe place, they either cry for no reason or climb the walls. We had a crying phase which lasted 10 mins or so for a couple of weeks as soon as I strapped him in his car seat on the way home and then he was fine. I've spoke to another few parents who shared the same experience so it is normal. If you ask my mother, none of her kids were like my ds but none of our personalities are like ds anyway. We are all different as adults, some outgoing, some introverts etc, we are all different and we can't expect kids to be the same model as well. Those who aren't the same model shouldn't be labelled either for their personality.

I’m starting to think it’s less about your daughter and more about your relationship with your parents.

Are you walking on eggshells because of your daughter or because of your parents are there. All of your comments are pointing to the parents. Do you think that your daughter could be feeding off of your edginess?

I can understand walking away from a tantruming child and feeling wrung out, but your description of how your say your parents made you feel is not typical. They sound a bit over the top with judgement and you sound like you are over the top with your wanting to have things perfect.

Sorry one more question… was you DM as shakes and quiet as you’ve made out or do you think you might have made more out of her comments and demeanor due to your state?

Before anyone jumps on me, it’s a fair question if the the OP was in a state herself. It could be that her mother was exactly as described… but with some of the comments from the OP about her parents and the situation it could be that she’s perceiving things due to her insecurities. Only the OP and the DM really know for sure… but it’s worth thinking about.

Your DD sounds a lot like mine tbh. Doesn't suffer any fools.

What I've taken from your posts is:

She's not sleeping enough

She's had enough of grandma and grandad being there and wants things back to normal

Also, she senses that your behaviour has changed because they are there and is playing up accordingly. It's basically attention seeking coupled with tiredness.

And no four year old on this earth wants to sit in a cafe with three old adults nattering away!! Park with a picnic with DD, then you do adult coffee and chat whilst she is at pre school

Agree 100% with @Tigofigo .

You need to stop crying in response to tantrums. Your child needs to know that you can deal with her emotions and that you are in control if your own. It's frightening for children to see they've made a parent cry.

I think you have a parent problem, not a child problem.

Your mum should have left you to get on with it when she heard the hoo hah going on upstairs. Instead she apparently couldn't restrain herself and chose a time when you were clearly struggling to basically dump her very misinformed ideas on you, along with a reminder of her half baked qualifications and patchy experience.

I have 2 boys and aside from some emotional behaviour from the youngest (all for me, he's an angel to everyone else) and the eldest being a poor listener and v chatty they are on the whole pretty well behaved. I have on many occasions been given money on public transport by old ladies for the eldest because of how well behaved he is. I know this is pure luck and not my parenting. However everytime my parents have him (rarely)they say he's an absolute nightmare, too loud, never shuts up, cheeky, running about. At first I felt awful at having raised such a horror until I spoke to my SIL who said categorically he is not a nightmare. They just have completely unrealistic expectations for children. They take him to church things and expect him to sit silently and still for over an hour . They praise the younger one and compare him to other kids as being so well behaved but he is severly speech delayed and selectively mute. If anything they are worse behaved than him and I've seen my dad have a tantrum in a restaraunt over a coffee not arriving on time.

Sounds like your little girl is out of her routine and missing her own space at home. If you have serious concerns remember you are still under a HV at 4 and they are an excellent resource for knowing when behaviour is normal and when its a red flag and can give you some ideas on how to support her through a meltdown. I remember a friend describing age 4 when they were at nursery as getting the 'fag ends' of her daughters behaviour. She was a delight at nursery but had exhausted all her social reserve and as soon as she got home and in her safe space just tantrum after tantrum.

Even while your folks are staying its ok for you to prioritise your little girls routine over their enjoyment of their holiday. When I stay with in laws my DN and DN are often around and they stay up later but I make it very clear when it's bedtime and make it happen. It's a lovely idea to have a few late nights but very few children can cope with it.

It sounds a little like they are not fully aware of what is age appropriate of a 4 year old. I was just reading a potty training book that said ages 3-4 they become aware that they have a will of their own and they are more than happy to practice using that will! That is why they go through the lovely NO! passed around this time.

After reading everything you described I think that she is also exhausted, cranky and over stimulated which is just adding to her negative behaviour.

I would not be rude to her because it sounds like she is genuinely concerned but would kindly turn the recommendation down and take her suggestions with a grain of rice. Like others have mentioned if you start hearing her teachers complaining or bringing up behaviour issues then I might reconsider.

DD8 was frankly, a little turd at that age sometimes OP. I gave her strict boundaries and walked away from many a tantrum and (God knows how, medication?) kept my cool.
DM and DF were shocked at some of Dd's out bursts and it became a case of 'behaviour management' and path of least resistance, albeit with boundaries (i will never be one of those "you're making Mummy sad" psrents as they seem to hzvecthe worst behaved kids).
DD is now an utter joy and hss been since about 6 years old, very quick, witty and my go-to company of choice.
Hang in there!

I might be the one voice of dissent here, but- start disciplining your child properly while she's young.
These children were four year olds once.

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