They want me to return my wages

[Honeybear58]

Posting here for traffic as I need urgent advice please

I left my previous job over a month ago, I gave in my notice during August. As I worked in a school I timed the notice so I wouldn’t have to return in September, but I gave my correct notice and followed the correct procedures. I was still in my probation period so it was just 2 weeks notice expected.

I have now received an email from HR stating they have overpaid me my last month wage and want it back in full or they will take me to court because I haven’t worked my notice period therefore breached my contract.

1- I could not have physically worked my notice period as the school was closed for summer
2- I’m on a pro rata pay so a wage month is from the 10th-10th, I physically worked until the 22nd July when the school closed for summer. After that and before my last day of my notice period (1st) I was still technically employed and wouldn’t have been entitled to the pay up to the 10th August, is that correct? They did not pay me anything from the 10thAugust to my last day although I was still technically an employee and hadn’t handed in my notice at that point.

Im now very worried about it going to court because I’m in severe financial difficulty right now, to the point where I haven’t eaten all weekend so my children can. I can’t spare a months wage to give back to them. They won’t offer a small payment plan where I pay what I can afford each month either.
can anyone advise if they are correct or if I can challenge this due to not being able to work my notice period as they were closed? I will attempt citizens advice but I’m hoping someone here will have the knowledge to help. Thank you

There's recently been a case decided which changes the way holiday is calculated for term time only contracts.

I suggest you don't do anything unless you get a full explanation and that you ask them to clarify if they've taken into account the recent judgment in Brazel v Harpur Trust.

If you have been overpaid they can sue you for repayment but whether they will bother is another matter. You could pay it back in small instalments. Your notice is valid even if it was closed for the summer unless there are rules about when you can issue notice (often applies to local authority maintained schools)

No. It would cost the OP more. Fees, and even legal costs, can be added to the claim. The OP needs to clarify if they owe the money and for what, and then work out a payment plan offer. They should not risk court or debt collectors. Neither will improve their position.

So.... they pay you pro rata but pay you in 12 equal parts.

So each month you are paid X. 12x = 12,000 (literally plucked a figure)

However your actual 24k is made up of £308 per week (39 weeks)

So at the point of leaving, you'd worked 4 months, but actually only 12 weeks as there were deductions for school holidays.

So they paid you 4k, but you actually earnt 12x 308 = 3.6k.

Ovvs figures are just pulled from nothing but the process is the same.

I've not read the full thread (only op's messages) so apologies if this was said before.

@Honeybear58 If you can't get through to citizens advice then try the ACAS helpline. 0300 123 1100

It's a government funded helpline which helps people who need employment or workplace advice. They don't charge for their help but depending on your phone deal you might be charged the cost of the phonecall.

I've called them before and found the advice really useful.

I would ask for a breakdown of salary paid, including for which period and their overpayment calculations.
The most likely explanation was they paid you for more annual leave then you accrued and were entitled to. ie if your annual leave allowance is 30 days per year and you worked for 4 months then pro rota you would be entitled to 10 days paid annual leave.
So did your 4 months employment include Easter holidays, May half term and first week of summer holidays? If so they may have overpaid your annual leave even though your salary was only paid until July.
They need to offer a clearer explanation and then ,if you accept you have been overpaid, its reasonable for you to offer them a repayment plan.
Going to court is probably a scare tactic. I doubt they'd do this
especially if you weren't actually given or had signed a contract of employment.
Contacting ACAS for advice is a good idea .

OP, stop panicking and make an appointment to see someone at your nearest Citizens Advice and take all the paperwork that you have received including printing out any email correspondence.

The majority of posters on here telling you to pay it back HAVE NO LEGAL TRAINING and they’re advice is often very wrong in many cases.

Even if it was found that you were overpaid and they are entitled to the money back, you cannot be compelled to pay it back in a lump sum.

Apologies, sorry, forgot about holiday pay ruling, doh!
How long did you work there, for? Your length of service is presumably (?) still quite short if you were still on probation (and/or possibly you've had other paid holidays eg summer half term) so you may still not have accrued enough holiday days during the time you were employed to cover the summer holiday days from 22Jul until your leaving date.

Massively stressful for you but it's their mistake and they're also in the wrong for not giving you a contract. I doubt it will get to court - you should be able to sort something before then.

Please try and get a referral to a food bank. If you have young DC ask your HV. You’ll get ill if you don’t eat and that won’t help anyone.

I hope things improve for you soon.

@Johnnysgirl - yes absolutely following a ruling from the Supreme Court due to the wording of the working time regs

www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/blogs/harpur-trust-v-brazel-paid-holiday-for-part-year-workers-cannot-be-pro-rated/

Not "now", it has always been the case, just noone ever did it. This ruling wasn't about that, it just included that and everyone jumped on that aspect.

Yes, part year workers (including TTO) should get a full year of statutory leave. But NOT the 5.6, because the 5.6 is not mandated by the EU law, it's only in the UK law, and the part year workers part is in the EU law, which relates only to the EU mandated 5 weeks.

Plus - while this applies to part year workers who are employed for the whole holiday year, it very clearly does not apply in the year someone joins or leaves, in those years (the same year in this case) the Regulations are clear that holiday is pro rated to the worked months.

I'm not sure if English Law (I'm making the broad assumption that you're in England) is the same as Scottish, but I know from what a Scottish debt charity told me, that if you offer them (in registered mail for your protection, btw) a £1 per month payment plan when you have serious money problems already, the Court - if they were foolish enough to pursue a lost cause in Court! - will tell them to accept that. End of case, gavel banged. Good Luck.💐

I work in HR, we don't send letters at all. Sometimes we do letters and we attach them to emails. But we never post letters, doesn't matter what it's about.

To be fair ACAS were advising people to use a pro rata calc until recently. So even though the law has not changed as the WTR have always stated the 5.6 weeks the application of it has as Harpur has brought it into the public eye. BEIS clarified it in 2020 but everyone ignored it.

Exactly. Everyone was doing it "wrong". Though ironically most employees prefer the wrong way.

I'm not sure any of this has much bearing in this actual matter though! But definitely OP should clarify the holiday terms, the pay dates, cut offs etc.

When I was Head of HR for a cleaning company which worked mainly in schools, the greatest number of pay complaints were people not understanding the pay dates and cut offs. We paid for the whole pay period (either the two week or month period) but extra hours or overtime were cut off early in the month. So it looks to me as if the payroll cut off is only for changes up to 10th, but the actual pay is for the calendar month.

It would be unusual, unheard of, to be paid on 10th for the previous month.
The OP needs to find out about this and go back through all her payslips, since she's only been there four months. Then she may see how she has actually been paid.

Please don't tell people incorrect information and then have a go at others because they don't have legal training. It is unlikely that someone would be compelled to repay a lump sum if they are unable to repay the money. But you cannot simply say, carte blanche, that they cannot be compelled to repay money in a lump sum because they absolutely can be so compelled by a court of law. And if they are forced to court the sum they owe will almost certainly increase anyway, instalments or not.

The OP needs to follow the very good advice given here, and find out what the former employer believes is owed and check whether this is correct. If it is then it is advisable to draw up a statement of financial affairs that demonstrates the affordability of instalments. Most advisers would suggest sending the first instalment with the offer / statement, and then keeping up all payments whether or not they agree. In that case it is exceptionally unlikely (but not impossible) that the employer would take further action unless payments were missed.

No agreed it's not relevant to the OP but I've seen a lot of posters saying they are TTO and get pro rata leave not based on the 5.6 weeks

OP needs to get a breakdown of the overpayment and offer an affordable payment plan

I don't know enough about wages and contracts to help you but I am very concerned that you're so broke that you don't have enough food. Is there a food bank near you? or another place where people can get a hot meal...? I don't know what the rules on mumsnet are, but can we get a bit of cash to this lady?

Not read the full thread - but I work in this area

Please don't leave yourself in financial difficulty over this, the only way they have of recovering the money is via small claims court and for the amount it wouldn’t be worth it.

To not burn bridges, offer a repayment plan - even of a small amount and explain you can’t afford more, but make sure you have a breakdown of it first. If in the unlikely event they do go to the small claims court, you can show that you offered what you could afford which will go in your favour

You have had some good advice here and I do wish you all the very best.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is, I think it's worth telling CAB about the lack of contract (or absurdly simple contract). I think if they haven't given you things like notice period in writing, they won't have a leg to stand on - but do check it with CAB.

Ok so you were employed there for 4 months up to the end of August so I am guessing you started at the beginning of May (correct me if I am wrong). I am also assuming that you have no entitlement to termtime holiday and all Paid Leave is assigned 6be happening during the school holidays.

TTO contracts tend to have you paid in 12 equal instalments to help you with budgeting. There are 39 weeks in the school year and your pro-rata legal entitlement to Leave is a total of 4.7 weeks across the year (accrued according to weeks worked so 0.12 weeks of leave accrues for each week worked) - the rest of the school holidays are unpaid.

So in May you will have worked for 4 weeks, the week at end May, beginning June being half term. You had accrued 0.48 weeks of Leave but had a week for half term so were half a week in deficit at that point. However they only would have paid you for 3.64 out of your total 43.7 week (39+4.7) contract.

In June you would have again worked 4 weeks, accrued 0.48 weeks of Paid Leave entitlement (nearly paying back the May half term) and been paid for another 3.64 weeks.

In July you will have worked for 3 weeks, accrued 0.36 weeks worth of Paid Leave (=1.7 days) and been paid for 3.64 weeks.

You were entitled to consider yourself on Paid Leave for the first 1.7 days of the summer holidays, after which you did no further work so accrued no futher entitlements.

At that point though you had been paid for 10.92 weeks of your 43.7 week contract, and had completed a total of 12.36 weeks so your August pay should have covered 1.44 weeks, so should have been 39.6% of your the preceding monthly pay packets. If they paid you for August in full then yes you owe them some of that money back. Only pay them back the post-tax,NI&pension amount though- claiming back those amounts is their problem.

Hello everyone,

We've had a number of reports from people concerned about this thread so, as we usually do in these circs, we're putting our heads round the door with some important reminders.

Right now we can't see any evidence to indicate that the OP isn't above board – if we did, we'd remove the thread straight away. But the truth is that, sadly, we at MNHQ can't know with 100% certainty that any poster is genuine, no matter who they are or how long they have been here. As frustrating as it is, we're not able to vouch for anyone here.

So we always ask users to remember that not everyone on the internet is who they say they are – and remind folk not to give more to another poster, either financially (in cash or gifts) or emotionally (in time or care and support) than they'd be prepared to lose if things went wrong. Though, we strongly advise against parting with any cash or giving away your personal details, and if you receive a PM which makes you uneasy - report it to us and we’ll take a look.

We've compiled some useful links posted by Mumsnetters into a financial issues webguide, so that people experiencing difficulties can find all the relevant information in one place: www.mumsnet.com/articles/financial-issues-guide

Sorry to hijack your thread briefly there, OP – we really hope you get it all sorted soon.

Thanks everyone, I can assure you it’s real, I’m happy to show someone the email blocking out my personal details to confirm it. I’m not sure why anyone would think I’m making it up enough to report me, it’s the most boring post to fake! I appreciate all the help and kind replies, I’m still awaiting a response from my old employer and will be contacting citizens advice after work today and have taken on board all your helpful advice.

If you have been overpaid regardless if it is their mistake you will have to repay them. Tell them £10.00 a month until it is cleared and to stop harassing you or you will take legal action.

Where I live, the creditor is not obliged to accept a payment plan, unless the court considers that the debt can be repaid in a timescale that the court considers reasonable

I meant it isn't down to the creditor to decide, it would be down to the court. And realistically, if you can't pay, you can't pay. I think a court would order a repayment plan before they'd say take the OP's TV away or whatever.

For goodness sake why did people report this thread? The OP hasn't asked for money, she has asked for advice!