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Original poster

They want me to return my wages

166 replies

Honeybear58 · 10/10/2022 17:17

Posting here for traffic as I need urgent advice please

I left my previous job over a month ago, I gave in my notice during August. As I worked in a school I timed the notice so I wouldn’t have to return in September, but I gave my correct notice and followed the correct procedures. I was still in my probation period so it was just 2 weeks notice expected.

I have now received an email from HR stating they have overpaid me my last month wage and want it back in full or they will take me to court because I haven’t worked my notice period therefore breached my contract.

1- I could not have physically worked my notice period as the school was closed for summer
2- I’m on a pro rata pay so a wage month is from the 10th-10th, I physically worked until the 22nd July when the school closed for summer. After that and before my last day of my notice period (1st) I was still technically employed and wouldn’t have been entitled to the pay up to the 10th August, is that correct? They did not pay me anything from the 10thAugust to my last day although I was still technically an employee and hadn’t handed in my notice at that point.

Im now very worried about it going to court because I’m in severe financial difficulty right now, to the point where I haven’t eaten all weekend so my children can. I can’t spare a months wage to give back to them. They won’t offer a small payment plan where I pay what I can afford each month either.
can anyone advise if they are correct or if I can challenge this due to not being able to work my notice period as they were closed? I will attempt citizens advice but I’m hoping someone here will have the knowledge to help. Thank you

OP posts:
reigatecastle · 10/10/2022 18:15

It sounds like they were very aggressive for a first email. I would have thought that they would have explained it with a calculation and then followed up in a few days if you didn't respond. Did they tell you HOW you should repay it eg to their bank account.

Also, are you sure this isn't a scam? It doesn't sound like it but check. Email scams are becoming increasingly sophisticated.

If they have said that eg you owe them £1000 propose paying £100 a month. Or £50 a month or £5 a week - whatever you think you can afford. If they say no they won't accept that, say you have sought legal advice and they have to accept a repayment plan, so you'll see them in court. Don't worry, they won't take it to court, and if they do, they'll lose. You won't have CCJ against you unless you ignore things.

It might also be worth asking MN to move this to Legal so you get qualified advice.

Caroffee · 10/10/2022 18:18

You need to give three months notice when you work in a school. It will be in your contract.

ChateauMargaux · 10/10/2022 18:19

I would ask this on the legal section on here...

If they have not given you a contract and have confirmed acceptance of your resignation and notice period, I am not sure they have legal grounds not to pay your notice - but... I do not know. I would also speak to ACAS.

Sapphire387 · 10/10/2022 18:19

Hello, I work for a trade union so this is my bread and butter, so to speak.

I'd be asking them why they haven't provided a proper written statement of particulars.

Without this and some other details, it's hard to say which way this should go.

If you know you worked a period that you were not paid for (10th-22nd July) then write back and tell them so and ask for the money!

Do not presume that your employer has got this right - from my experience, sometimes they will be right, but other times not.

Acas may well be useful if you are not in a union.

Original poster
Honeybear58 · 10/10/2022 18:19

Thanks for those explaining the ccj and court situation, that’s what has worried me most. I’m willing to pay x amount a month but I can’t pay the full wage back in large lump sums or all in one go. It’s definitely from the company I worked for as the HR manager has sent it personally and also their bank details for me to pay them back. From what I’ve worked out it’s definitely not the august pay as I wasn’t paid, it’s the July pay.

OP posts:
TheHideAndSeekingHill · 10/10/2022 18:20

It seems like we're at the bottom of why they think they've overpaid you (although obviously wait and see what they say). I think when you speak to Citizen's Advice what you need is clarification of whether if this holiday hours thing is correct, whether they can enforce it on you if you weren't told/it wasn't in your contract.

If I was employed by a hotel say and they shut for January, I wouldn't naturally assume I'd have to accrue that leave unless I was told so outright. If your workplace is shut... you can't work.

You might want to have a chat with ACAS too www.acas.org.uk/advice

They might be able to help it go away or give you an idea of your rights (and wrongs) for next time.

Hope things get better for you soon.

Johnnysgirl · 10/10/2022 18:22

They are entitled to reclaim any overpayment. On a side note, why are you resigning when you literally can't afford to eat?

Crazykatie · 10/10/2022 18:23

Tell them you havn’t got the money to pay them back and you didn’t understand the contract terms, they probably will not bother taking you to court because that will cost them more than the wages

If they do say you didn’t understand and havn’t got the money, the worst you will get is a payment plan

Lancasterlassie · 10/10/2022 18:23

How much is it OP? Can you offer again to pay £10 a month? Are you in alternative employment now?

im sorry you don’t have enough food that’s really tough. Is there a food back near you that you can access?

VivX · 10/10/2022 18:30

All-year-round workers work 260.71 days per year (incl annual leave - typically around 35 days for a school - 25 basic days, 8 bank hols plus a couple of extra statutory days)
So, all-year-round workers work 225.71 days, and accrue 35/225.71 = 1.551 days of annual leave per day that they work
If you were TTO, then your pay is based on 39 weeks, so 195 worked days per year plus a pro-rata entitlement of holiday days (in this example, it would be195 x 1.551days = 30.24 days) The rest of the school holidays are unpaid.

But to avoid you being paid a lesser salary in August, say, (to account for the unpaid school holiday days), they just work out what you would earn in a full year and then divide by 12.

If you haven't been there a year, then the 1/12ths salary obviously doesn't work out, so they have to do an exact calculation when you leave, taking into account the fact that some of your non-working time would have been unpaid.

Original poster
Honeybear58 · 10/10/2022 18:31

Johnny’s girl because the fuel costs to get there were pushing me further into debt, my new job is walking distance so I don’t need to use credit cards just now

its £500 I can probably just about spare £5 a month which wouldn't be good enough for any payment plan and I’m sure even a court would expect me to contribute more than that. My deadline is in 2 weeks. I have no one to ask for the money to borrow from I would have to find a way of using a credit card

OP posts:
ChipsforMe · 10/10/2022 18:33

It is how it works
The holiday year goes April to April in many cases and so the school holidays mean that you end up taking more leave than you accrue

If you start in September you get an additional payment in March as you have undertaken holidays.

ChipsforMe · 10/10/2022 18:39

You are paid for 44.4 weeks but split across a year
From April- Sept there are 2 weeks Easter, 1 May and 6 weeks in the summer which are school holidays- so 8 and a bit weeks
From Sept- end of March there are October half term, 2 weeks and a bit at Christmas and a week at feb half term.

Itloggedmeoutagain · 10/10/2022 18:40

Caroffee · 10/10/2022 18:18

You need to give three months notice when you work in a school. It will be in your contract.

Op says clearly it's two weeks

VivX · 10/10/2022 18:42

Anyway, ask for a complete breakdown of their calculations, how they have calculated your gross pay and holiday pay and the dates and notice period that they are basing their calculations on.
If you want help in checking their figures, please feel free to private message me.

LetMeSpeak · 10/10/2022 18:42

Some of you must have the stomachs made of steel. Why not curry with breadsticks Or grissini?

LosingMyPancakes · 10/10/2022 18:43

If you needed to give a 2 weeks notice, you should have resigned on the 8th July which would've taken you through to the 22nd.

Were you not able to resign then? If so, maybe discussing with your manager how you were to work your notice with the school being closed would have clarified any confusion. Did no one mention anything about your last day/pay/holiday entitlement?

ReceptionTA · 10/10/2022 18:44

Caroffee · 10/10/2022 18:18

You need to give three months notice when you work in a school. It will be in your contract.

This is not true (my notice period is 4 weeks).

The OP believes her notice period was 2 weeks because she was still on probation.

notanothertakeaway · 10/10/2022 18:47

reigatecastle · 10/10/2022 18:15

It sounds like they were very aggressive for a first email. I would have thought that they would have explained it with a calculation and then followed up in a few days if you didn't respond. Did they tell you HOW you should repay it eg to their bank account.

Also, are you sure this isn't a scam? It doesn't sound like it but check. Email scams are becoming increasingly sophisticated.

If they have said that eg you owe them £1000 propose paying £100 a month. Or £50 a month or £5 a week - whatever you think you can afford. If they say no they won't accept that, say you have sought legal advice and they have to accept a repayment plan, so you'll see them in court. Don't worry, they won't take it to court, and if they do, they'll lose. You won't have CCJ against you unless you ignore things.

It might also be worth asking MN to move this to Legal so you get qualified advice.

@reigatecastle
If they have said that eg you owe them £1000 propose paying £100 a month. Or £50 a month or £5 a week - whatever you think you can afford. If they say no they won't accept that, say you have sought legal advice and they have to accept a repayment plan, so you'll see them in court

Where I live, the creditor is not obliged to accept a payment plan, unless the court considers that the debt can be repaid in a timescale that the court considers reasonable

OP, if they've only just written to you, I doubt they will rush to raise court proceedings. It's reasonable to ask for clarification of how much they think you owe. Don't put your head in the sand. If you accept that you owe money, probably best to make a payment on account to show good faith and hope that they accept instalments

lightlypoached · 10/10/2022 18:48

Many moons ago I used to work in payroll. When they overpaid people they tried to get it back in lumps or instalments but most never got collected.

I'd sit tight and ignore/tell them no you can't repay it. It will cost them far too much to take you to court and they will likely end up writing it off.

Bard6817 · 10/10/2022 18:49

If your contract (rubbish as it is states a notice period) and you handed in a resignation that gives the required amount of notice, and didn’t start a job until the notice period ended and were available for work…. I think that they might get short shrift from a court. If you offer a payment plan, noting that you believe that there is fault on their sides and they decline, especially if your circumstances about struggling to buy food right now, are justifiable and accurate and you are prepared to share that with a court, ie. open to scruitiny, i think a magistrate will put you on a £1 to £5 a month payment plan.

Make a point of asking for a copy of the terms and conditions and a copy of your employment contract, as these will be required and subject to scrutiny in court.

Just to be on the safe side, highlight that you are in financial difficulties, emphasise you are willing to come to a mutual agreement, but that they are not permitted to share your details with any third parties at this time despite any GDPR agreements they had in place when you were an employee under your standard t&c’s, they are now revoked and you expect your privacy to be respected.

Overpaid pay is not a standard debt, and can’t be sold to a debt collection agency. I’ve tried as an employer to reclaim it by this method, and the agencies i spoke with (reputable ones) wouldn’t touch it. They can however take you to court, but if you tread carefully, they SHOULd agree a payment plan.

Original poster
Honeybear58 · 10/10/2022 18:49

Thanks VivX
i was offered my new job at the interview and gave my notice in instantly, which lined up with when I should have returned to my previous job but my notice period had ended the day before. My manager knew I was looking for another job and confirmed I only had to give 2 weeks notice when I found something as I was in my probation period, after that they expect 4 week notice. I wasn’t employed by the school directly, it was an outside company.

OP posts:
girlmom21 · 10/10/2022 18:51

LetMeSpeak · 10/10/2022 18:42

Some of you must have the stomachs made of steel. Why not curry with breadsticks Or grissini?

Hahahah

Hana89 · 10/10/2022 18:52

If you do end up having to repay the money OP I think it would be a really good idea to seek financial advice from Citizens Advice. If you only have £5 per month spare then you may need help proving that and setting out your financial hardship transparently to try and get a fair deal. I don't know much about these things but I wish you the very best of luck x

UnicornMadeOfPinkGlitter · 10/10/2022 18:52

Three months is the standard notice for a teacher. Other staff support including TA’s and admin are usually one month.
I work in schools finance and contracts for school staff.
as someone said above support staff usually work 195 days a year (including inset days 190 if not contracted for inset days) then a certain amount of holiday which is different according to the grade you are in and length of service.
eg I actually work 197 days a year as I work results day as well and get paid for 45.25 weeks of the year. Leaving me with 7 weeks unpaid leave a year roughly.
the school pay me this over 12 months so I get the same amount each month And not any period of less pay or no pay.