They want me to return my wages

[Honeybear58]

Posting here for traffic as I need urgent advice please

I left my previous job over a month ago, I gave in my notice during August. As I worked in a school I timed the notice so I wouldn’t have to return in September, but I gave my correct notice and followed the correct procedures. I was still in my probation period so it was just 2 weeks notice expected.

I have now received an email from HR stating they have overpaid me my last month wage and want it back in full or they will take me to court because I haven’t worked my notice period therefore breached my contract.

1- I could not have physically worked my notice period as the school was closed for summer
2- I’m on a pro rata pay so a wage month is from the 10th-10th, I physically worked until the 22nd July when the school closed for summer. After that and before my last day of my notice period (1st) I was still technically employed and wouldn’t have been entitled to the pay up to the 10th August, is that correct? They did not pay me anything from the 10thAugust to my last day although I was still technically an employee and hadn’t handed in my notice at that point.

Im now very worried about it going to court because I’m in severe financial difficulty right now, to the point where I haven’t eaten all weekend so my children can. I can’t spare a months wage to give back to them. They won’t offer a small payment plan where I pay what I can afford each month either.
can anyone advise if they are correct or if I can challenge this due to not being able to work my notice period as they were closed? I will attempt citizens advice but I’m hoping someone here will have the knowledge to help. Thank you

School notice period and pay can be tricky to
navigate as your wages are pro Rata and divided over the year so you can get equal pay. It’s quite possible you’ve been overpaid I would contact them for proof in writing so you can see where the over payment occurred and try to come to some arrangement in the return of the money

They can take you to court but they’re going to have to show they’ve taken reasonable steps to come to an amicable arrangement with you prior to court. So refusing your payment plan and ignoring your request for more info isn’t going to look good for them. I’d be tempted to call their bluff but that’s just me.

Hi, I haven't read all the responses, so thisay have been said, but you should contact "step change" as well as anything else, especially if you are trying to pay back a few debts. They can arrange a payment scheme for all your debts at a much much lower rate and they deal will it all so you never get any more letters. Also courts realy do take into account how much you can pay even if its £5 a month . Good luck x

VivX is right. You haven't been there very long and will not have accrued A/L on a TTO prorated contract over a 12 month period. Difficult to work out without k owing your start date, leaving date and working pattern.

However, they have not provided you with a statement of particulars or a contract and in acknowledging your resignation did not provide clarity about your final.payment. I think all is not lost. There has recently been a Supreme Court Decision on rolled up holiday pay fir permanent part time workers. Harper Trust v Brazel. This states that annual leave 5.6 weeks should be calculated on the basis of the average weekly pay for the preceding 12 weeks. It has massive implications for rolled up holiday pay for hourly paid workers/employees and TTO contracts. If you worked an average of 17.5 hours per week for the previous 12 working weeks before your resignation you would be entitled to 5.6/2 = 2.8 weeks/12 x 4 = 4.66 days. Holiday statutorily rounds up to the nearest half day. They owe you one weeks' money I estimate. Deduct that from what they have paid you.

Try to keep it amicable. CAB may be able to help you. I don't believe an employer would chase such a small figure through the court process and you are unlikely to have judgment against you if you are able to demonstrate you have made reasonable efforts to deal with the matter.

I think the way they're seeing it is for your notice period you are expected to work X-number of hours, but because you didn't work any hours you therefore owe them X-number of hours of money in lieu of that.

Right ok, so they've paid you up until the 10th of August but you were on presumably unpaid leave because you didn't have enough holiday days to cover yet. So they've overpaid you from 23rd July to 10th August.

That sounds about right then, see if their calculation clearly explains if that's what happened and go from there.

No I wasn’t paid for it I was paid for July as the wages are worked out 10th-10th so I didn’t get paid for

I think this might be where there's a misunderstanding. Even though you get paid on the 10th, ir doesn't necessarily mean that's the actual pay period.

I work in HR... what's I work we're paid mid month-15th, unless that's a weekend.

People think we're paid from the 15th to the 15th, but that's not the case and they often think they've been underpaid when they make their last working day the 15th, expecting a full month's pay.

We're actually paid for the calendar month, 2 weeks in advance and 2 weeks in arrears. So pay received on 15th of October, is for the month of October, not the 15th of Sept to 15th of October.

So if you were paid on the 10th then you were likely paid for the whole month which is why you've been overpaid.

Offer a decent monthly repayment that you can afford. Don't let it go into the next tax year. They'd be foolish not to accept your proposal. In your letter ask for the bank details to repay the monies owed.

I left my TA job couple of years ago. Handed my notice in end of July so I didn't have to go back September, and got paid end of August as obviously if I was working my month in hand it would of been August. I always assumed as well we get paid from the month before rather than the month you've worked if that makes any sense so you work a month in hand. When I returned from maternity leave (before I left) they overpaid me, I was given the choice of paying back monthly or in full. You should be given the choice so i would query that. Also a bit shit of them to not of warned you about owing money, admin/office would of known that and should of made you aware.

Sorry I got paid on the last day of every month but the pay would be for what I earned between 10th of the last month to the 10th of the current month if that makes more sense.

It does sound very likely that’s how they have worked it out, thank you all for explaining it more. Though they could have worded the email with a simple ‘we have overpaid you’ and left out the threats and accusing me of breaching the contract for not working my notice period, which was physically impossible anyway.

i will await their response with all the figures and details and get onto citizens advice. As much as I don’t want to pay I will find a way as I don’t want the risk of going to court but I just want to make sure it’s all correct first. Thanks for all the replies I’ll update when I know more.

also if they give you gross figures of YOU OWE US £x, then they paid you after decucting tax and ni? (unless under limits) so any repayment you make will also be net of tax and ni.

i agree, they shiuld have sent a much clearer email at start laying out the numbers in a way that most people could understand how the overpayment arose.

She hasn't been given a contract

There's always one arseh*le.

Where I work (school) we get paid on 20th of every month. 20th Oct payment covers 1st - 31st October.

I'm so sorry OP, it sounds like you're in a really tricky situation. It's so hard at the moment, especially on the pittance school staff are paid.

I hope you're able to find a solution. Stay strong x

⬆️ sound advice.

And I would be careful not to put anything in writing that is an admission that you do indeed owe them money and/or accept that there has been an overpayment.

Slightly off topic but I’ve seen a number of term time only workers on this thread suggesting that thier annual leave entitlement is pro rata to reflect thier part year working pattern

This is incorrect. If you are part year you are entitled to 5.6 weeks annual leave. This is the case even if you only work one day a year.

Surely not, @catgirl1976 ?

Were you an agency worker?
So, if your line manager confirmed 2 weeks notice - do they also work for the outside company or are they directly employed by the school.

If you were an agency worker, then the agency were possibly the ones that made the mistake rather than the school itself.

Or perhaps there was some sort of miscommunication between the school (who believed you only had 2 weeks notice) and the outside company/agency who thought you were on 4 weeks notice and miscalculated your pay accordingly.

Anyway, until you see their calculations, you won't know what they've done.
But TTO working does catch people out - but also works in a lot of people's favour.

I do hope it works out, offer is still open when you do get further info from them.

If you had not handed in your notice, would you have been entitled to be paid for the relevant period / is everyone else who is still working there paid while the school is closed? If so, unless there is something specific about this in your contract I would expect you are entitled to be paid for the notice period (just like everyone else is) as you are are still technically employed. I would do as you have done and ask them to show you in your contract why they think they have overpaid you. Good luck.

I'm wondering why have you received an email.

Surely something of this level should be a letter ?

Can anyone comment.

If your contract was term time only this might make sense?

Just wanted to wish you luck
Support staff work is harder than many realise (who haven't done it) and pay is ridiculously low. Working out pro-rata always makes my head hurt and I could well have made the same mistake as you in the future.
Are you part of Unison? I am with NASUWT as my support role involves teaching but was with Unison in the past. Hope things get better for you soon x

This . They are on very dodgy ground .

TTO staff should now be receiving 5.6 weeks holiday pay because of a recent change. www.unison.org.uk/news/2022/07/unison-supported-legal-victory-secures-new-holiday-rights-for-all-workers/ OP when you email them for a breakdown, make sure you ask about this too. Good luck.

You can ask them for their explanation but I’m afraid I think that you will have to repay it.
Offer a payment plan and say you cannot repay immediately as you did not understand the complications of accruing holiday.

If they never gave you a contract there is none, only what you agreed verbally. So all those terms and conditions and meaningless. I'd let them come for you in that case.