..to think that Labour is rotten from the inside?

[bounceoff]

I’m not a Tory voter, so I’m not posting to say how good they are (cos clearly, very clearly, they’re not!).

Has anybody else listened to The Labour Files on Al Jazeera English? (Link to podcast and web page below)?

Basically Al Jazeera got given years of communications from the Labour Party and investigated it. It details anti-Semitism, but not from Jeremy Corbyn - against even holocaust survivors, deep seated Islamophobia, racism/xenophobia any misogyny. To be honest the Labour Party primed Labour votes to vote Tory.

Labour councillors and members were followed and had files kept on not only their movements, but those of their children.

It actively took steps to avoid Muslim members being elected.

It actively purged members who joined to vote for Corbyn.

Brickgate had no brick ever found.

The list goes on.

I have zero faith in politicians, but this is something quite different. The level of control exerted to stop alternatives views being heard, to prevent democratic processes happening is quite horrifying. There is a clear thread that the party only likes democracy when it’s controlling it.

I have been confused about why the Labour Party lacks so many people of colour in the parliament and this was squarely answered. Same with why there’s not been a female leader. Because from what we hear from the party it makes zero sense. After listening to this report, I’m surprised anybody other than a handful of white men vote for it.

The party seems completely rotten from the core.

AIBU thinking this after listening to the investigation? Anybody else heard it?

www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party

podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/al-jazeera-investigates/id1488977521?i=1000581016758

Can't help but feel cynical about an attempt to undermine the opposition at this particular juncture. Are Labour perfect? Absolutely not but given the current voting system we have in place and the horrendous administration we have in place at the moment, I'm going for the alternative. The status quo of a Tory government that is absolutely dead on its feet is not an option for me.

Labour in the 00s. Shall we keep the Tories in power because the opposition might still be the same as they were 12 years ago?

I think that we're heading for another referendum on PR. The Labour party will need some sort of agreement with the Lib Dems and doubtless it will have to include an agreement for another referendum.

The problem with that is that no Labour government that's "in" - in the sense of having a majority of seats - is going to allow PR. It's not in their interests, and Starmer has already said he's not going to do it. The only chance of PR (which I agree is absolutely necessary) is with a hung parliament in which minority parties can present it as the price of their support.

Although I have no time for their politics, if I were in a seat where the lib dems have any kind of chance whatsoever I would be voting for them for that reason.

Jolly have Labour been in power in the last 50 years when they haven’t been more of a centre party. Well no they haven’t. Voters rejected a Labour Party that moved too far to the left.

so yes Labour does need to be more to the centre. Under Blair things were not perfect but many peoples lives improved greatly. Blair/Brown’s Labour appealed to people polices they felt could work. Whats the point if not enough people are connecting to Labour that they won’t vote for them and they stay in opposition.

so yes a Labour that can be elected is an alternative to the Tories. It’s the only alternative that will gain power and actually be in a position to make changes to better more peoples lives

Labour have wasted too many years leading to more people suffering for what so the opposite could plan a socialist utopia. And how well did that go ? Who benefitted from this? I can answer that not one of the voting public

@Isitsixoclockalready why would Labour need an agreement with the Lib Dems, even the most pessimistic interpretations of the current opinion polls has Labour with a significant majority.

Can't help but feel cynical about an attempt to undermine the opposition at this particular juncture.

Me too. These posts come across as desperate attempts by Tory fanatics to point out how bad Labour was whilst their own party is on fire all around them. This time we aren't falling for it.

Our local CLP are toxic, they've actively witch hunted the lefties. Our labour run council are full of over 60 ( most over 70 ) white , predominantly married couples .

Our CLP was taken over by shouty 30-40 something white Corbyn groupie blokes for a while. Everyone else was Blairite Tory Scum. Women especially vilified.
So, y’know…

@HRTQueen I agree that a lot of things improved under Blair. Unfortunately though the state of the UK & world now and the challenges facing it are nothing like in 1997. Again you seem to be fixated on tired historical generalities rather than the specifics of the moment that challenge those generalities.

Labour have wasted too many years leading to more people suffering for what so the opposite could plan a socialist utopia. And how well did that go ? Who benefitted from this? I can answer that not one of the voting public

That's the choice that the voting public made, because most of the voting public (like you, apparently) were still under the illusion that our current problems can be solved without changing anything much. And because the one structural change that they did believe in - Brexit - was a crock of shit.

The only answer to that (and it doesn't look like happening any time soon) is for people to wake up, work out and accept the changes that are needed. Whether the right vehicle to deliver that is a Labour government, PR, Scottish & Irish independence and a new constitution for England or something else entirely is a secondary question.

I'm always sceptical of terms like "taken over" in this context, because often when you drill down all it really means is that there was a certain group of people with power and a different group came along and took some of that power. If that process occurs fairly and democratically as it's supposed to then there's not actually anything wrong with it. By contrast @JayniSummers point about "witch-hunting" the lefties relates to actual anti-democratic events that are occurring throughout the party, instigated by the national leadership, and involving wholesale corruption of the party's supposed rules and processes to push through - like suspending and expelling left wing members based on tenuous judgments about years-old facebook likes.

But if both of your comments are genuine grievances, then even that tells us something, which is that respect for fair democratic process and accountability to rules is necessary for the Labour party if it's going to represent a wide range of people with a variety of views - regardless of which of those people are currently in power. Jeremy Corbyn attempted to strengthen that process, launching a root-and-branch review into party democracy and beginning to institute some changes. Starmer has reversed that entirely and treated both the membership and the processes intended to facilitate their positive cooperation with contempt. That's not a left vs right issue, it's a democracy vs autocracy and a truth vs lies issue.

‘Taken over’ in my context meant that Momentum took over by intimidation, shouting and belittling, so that gradually the debate, the breadth of opinion and sadly, many of the women, drifted away from our local party. The grown ups left the building. It was incredibly toxic and felt like an aggressive Student Union a lot of the time.

Be as sceptical as you like, but that’s what happened. Local Labour have gradually come back together in a slightly more sane fashion, but it was damaged in my area by Corbyn.

(BTW, I left the Labour Party during that period and although I would vote for them if a GE was called tomorrow, I am loathe to get involved again)

I haven't seen this particular expose but it is fairly obvious to me that over the last few decades Labour has become hollowed out and like the Tories is rotten to the core.

When I was young Labour had any number what I would call serious politicians. You may not agree with their views but I don't think anyone would argue that people like Harold Wilson, Denis Healey, Barbara Castle and Peter Shore were frivolous.

The trouble began in the 80s with the rise of the hard left in the party pushing the Gang of Four into forming the SDP. Whatever else you think of him Neil Kinnock fought a courageous battle for the soul of the party. I suspect the tragedy for the party was the premature death of John Smith.

By the time Blair came to power he had a number of heavyweights in his cabinet - Brown, Straw, Blunkett, Cook but unfortunately the man is a shameless spiv and was egged on by two people who have had a genuinely malign influence on Britain - Mandelson and Campbell. It didn't help that the Tories were shambolic until Cameron took over

Roll on another few years and the party committed hari-kiri by letting Corbyn on to the leadership ballot and opened to the gates to another flood of the far left which dominated the party even more so than the 80s. This drove the remaining sensible MPs to the fringes or even off the stage. It also allowed anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry to flourish

Starmer is a decent leader but the quality of people in the parliamentary party is dreadful - think Lammy, Burgon, Butler, Long-Bailey and the like. Local councils still seem ridden with the far left as well

Like the Tories they need tearing down and starting from scratch

Starmer is a decent leader but the quality of people in the parliamentary party is dreadful - think Lammy, Burgon, Butler, Long-Bailey and the like. Burgon, Butler and Long-Bailey are not in cabinet, this is very out of date - they were around under Corbyn.

Cooper, Streeting, Reeves, Miliband, Nandy etc. all know their briefs well.

I think the shadow cabinet looks pretty stable/sane/knowledgeable right now.

Miliband inflicted the dreadful Climate Change Act on us. Streeting I'm ok on.

At one point Starmer seemed to think Anneliese Dodds was a suitable chancellor and still thinks Lammy is ideal as foreign secretary

Maybe you should actually watch it before giving your opinion 😂

@ManAboutTown maybe you should actually watch it before giving your opinion on stuff it proves is incorrect.

This. All the clear, sensible costed policies are coming from the opposition benches now. Starmer’s really turned the party round.

The problem is that normal people have been forced out of Labour by the extremists and political wonks. You don't get normal working-class people getting involved because they aren't made to feel welcome or valued. The people in charge spend too long and in an echo chamber, espousing crazier and crazier policies which seem normal to them, then they put them to the electorate and get rejected, and then they call the voters "uneducated", "gammon", "facists" or whatever for not voting for them. And this goes on and on.

I think this is right and as a consequence Labour has become driven by relatively minor issues. Their day of sticking up for the working class went out the window with Blair.

The looming energy crisis is going to bring the roof down on Labour and Tories alike

Labour will have little room to manoeuvre in current climate it’s very different global situation to when Blair was in

Best either party can hope is the war ends - and of course for those suffering in Ukraine

www.thejc.com/news/news/secret-hate-account-of-key-al-jazeera-documentary-witness-7yXAHeLWsg6VLN13OJu84j

I’m sceptical

Jolly again the left can plan the revolution as much as they like it isn’t happening not under the system we have for voting or any other system. Corbyn can speak at as many rallies as his heart desires his followers can beat his revolutionary drum it makes fuck all difference. I’m aware things were different in 1997 there were different challenges but this is always the case new challenges come along with governments to deal with

Im also well aware Brexit hasn’t fixed things (let’s not forget many on the far left are supporters of Brexit) but it’s what the majority of voters voted for I hope one day it will be reversed but now is not the time because again it’s about working with what you have, working with voters.

I want a Labour Party in power as I know lives will improve. Labour were rejected in recent years and will again if they plan to make changes that voters are not comfortable with it’s irrelevant what sort of policies any of us on here dream of

Compared to what's on offer from the Tories, the Labour shadow cabinet looks like a beacon of strength, knowledge and reliability. Given the circumstances it would be difficult to not do so.

The looming energy crisis is going to bring the roof down on Labour and Tories alike

How can it? One of them will be in government whatever happens. At least the opposition has a taxation plan to pay for the energy freeze and isn’t planning to borrow to cover it. At least that’s today - I’d put money on Hunt stealing that idea, he’d be mad not to.