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Not to like the Globe Theatre calling me a bitch?

549 replies

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 05/10/2022 21:11

OK, not to my face. But following the non-binary Joan of Arc play they’ve shared a ‘terfs stop being transphobic challenge’ referring to anyone who doesn’t believe in gender identity as a bitch.

It’s a shame. I’ve been to some amazing plays at the Globe. But they’ve made their position on feminists pretty clear, so I won’t be going back.

twitter.com/The_Globe/status/1577694873204973569?t=4hr_PKJE3MY0_9-1x3oFvQ&s=19

OP posts:
EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 06/10/2022 07:55

Shakespeare had plenty of strong female characters who refused to conform to sex role stereotypes & pretended to be male for whatever reason. I don’t remember a single play where this meant that the character was supposed to have actually stopped being a woman.

OP posts:
Naunet · 06/10/2022 08:44

JunebuginDecember · 05/10/2022 21:39

It's only offensive if you're the thing they're talking about. If you're truly not transphobic or trans-exclusionary then surely you wouldn't take offense...

So it’s transphobic not to call men who demand it, women, but it is ok to call women bitches, if they don’t accept men can be women?

And you don’t see the misogyny there?

Knittingmonster · 06/10/2022 08:46

@so by your logic @JunebuginDecember calling a TW a man is not offensive, because if they weren’t men they wouldn’t get offended. So why do they get offended being called men then? By your standards they should accept it.

Hilarymantelspencilsharpener · 06/10/2022 08:46

Tara's have used Shakespeare's penchant for cross dressing characters as a 'gotcha' in the past, while, of course, completely ignoring the fact that there's extra comedy in the beardy bloke in a dress situation - or there was in the 17th century, at least. Also, women (AHF) weren't allowed to act on stage at the time.

Hilarymantelspencilsharpener · 06/10/2022 08:47

Sorry, not looking to accuse any Taras. S/be TRAs.

Goosygandy · 06/10/2022 08:55

I was offended being called a P--i. Not because I'm from that part of the world; although I am dark hued. But because it's meant to be offensive and hurtful. Even though we're supposed to shrug things off, it's hard to do that when people throw around unpleasant terms.

It's always one way. Radical trans activists can say whatever they like with impunity. Whereas whenever women say the mildest things about their rights, this untrue slur is thrown out. Being for women's rights, wanting to protect vulnerable women does not make you someone who wants to exclude trans people from society. Calling you a TERF is therefore a slur.

Choconut · 06/10/2022 09:12

I'm so confused by the Globe, I thought they got rid of Emma Rice because she was too 'out there' and they wanted to be much more conservative and traditional? I mean I loved her Romeo and Juliet - stand out for me was a black, female actress playing Tybalt who is literally burnt into my mind - but I thought then that they were playing with gender - and giving women strong roles.

Now instead of going traditional they're going completely the opposite and so we're down the 'every strong woman was a bit man' path instead. It seems it wasn't tradition they wanted to promote, just men.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/10/2022 09:14

That poem is DARVO, albeit badly-written darvo. It calls women terfs and bitches, talks about how we are scared of them and their anger, and then accuses us of wanting to "put them in the ground".

No, that's you, Alex, with your hatred of women. The violent fantasies are all yours.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 06/10/2022 09:19

‘Noble Prince, my name is Jeanne the Maiden, and I am sent by God to help you and your kingdom’

we need you now, La Pucelle

DahliasLove · 06/10/2022 09:30

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 06/10/2022 06:46

I think ‘gender nonconforming’ can at least imply that someone rejects gender as a concept. Saying that women like Joan are nonbinary reinforces all the tired old misogynist stereotypes, though.

Yeah that makes a bit more sense, but the person I quoted said someone who is a strong women would be gender non conforming and it just seems so backwards to me.

What it says to me is women can’t be strong or outside stereotypes, they then have to be something else.

Redfrangipani · 06/10/2022 09:32

Hilarymantelspencilsharpener · 06/10/2022 08:47

Sorry, not looking to accuse any Taras. S/be TRAs.

Thanks for that correction. I’m learning a lot today on this thread. I was about to google ‘Tara’

georgarina · 06/10/2022 09:33

the person I quoted said someone who is a strong women would be gender non conforming and it just seems so backwards to me.

Reminds me of a quote by a trans man defending the erasure of femininity from the birth experience - along the lines of 'labour was the hardest thing I've ever experienced. There was nothing feminine about it.'

If people can't see how sexist and regressive that is...I really have nothing else to say.

Hilarymantelspencilsharpener · 06/10/2022 09:34
Grin
Discovereads · 06/10/2022 09:38

Hoardasurass · 06/10/2022 00:24

@Discovereads terf is a slur and is used normally by violent TRAs along with death and rape threats as I'm certain that you know this already if not "educate yourself "

There’s no consensus on it being a slur. Saying it is doesn’t make it fit the definition for one. Educating yourself usually requires stepping outside the echo chamber once in awhile.

Pearce, R., Erikainen, S., & Vincent, B. (2020). TERF wars: An introduction. The Sociological Review, 68(4), 677–698. doi.org/10.1177/0038026120934713

”Similar debates surround the acronym ‘TERF’, which was originally used in the late 2000s by some cis women to explicitly distinguish their own radical feminism from trans-exclusionary approaches (Smythe, 2018). ‘TERF’ is now employed by many trans-inclusive feminists and rejected by trans-exclusionary campaigners. Individuals who object to the acronym ‘TERF’ often argue that it amounts to a misogynist slur, as in the case of the external examiner in the opening vignette. Certainly, TERF (like ‘cis’) is often used in angry commentaries online by both cis and trans feminists, either as an accusation (e.g. ‘you’re a TERF’) or an insult (e.g. ‘fuck off TERF’). Yet, it is important to understand and account for the power dynamic at play here. In examples such as those above, members of a marginalised group and their allies seek to identify, and express anger or frustration at, a harmful ideology that is promoted primarily by and in the interests of those who are systemically privileged as cis (men as well as women). That is not to say that this is a helpful process without qualification. For example, a well-meaning but poorly-informed individual may be unfairly labelled a ‘TERF’ due to their lack of awareness or understanding of the realities of trans lives. This does not, however, mean that ‘TERF’ actually functions as a slur. Christopher Davis and Elin McCready (2020), for example, have argued that while the acronym can be used to denigrate a particular group, this group is defined by chosen ideology rather than an intrinsic property (in contrast to trans people for instance, or women). It is this denigration of a group defined by an intrinsic property that is necessary to constitute a slur. Moreover, in the case of ‘TERF’ the act of denigration does not function to subordinate within some structure of power relations (in contrast to acts such as misgendering, and sexist slurs such as ‘bitch’).”

April 22nd, 2022

Raquel Rosario Sanchez, 32, sued the University of Bristol alleging it failed to protect her from the activists, who targeted her over her involvement with campaign group Woman’s Place UK. She brought a claim against the university for damages in contract, negligence and the Equality Act over the way it handled her complaints about being targeted. Ms Rosario Sanchez, whose academic background is in feminism, began her PhD course in autumn 2017, researching men who pay for sex. She said both her mental health and her academic performance suffered as a result of online attacks that began in February 2018.
Activists had protested against a talk she gave and labelled her a “terf” – a trans-exclusionary radical feminist – and claimed she was “spreading hate about trans people”. Judge Alex Ralton dismissed Ms Rosario Sanchez’s claim that (among other things) TERF was a slur:
”Generally, it is not for me in this case to pass judgment on the acceptability of the things said and done and whether the line beyond acceptable free speech was crossed, but I do observe that the threat or use of violence such as the threat of throwing eggs or a punch obviously crosses that line and amounts to abhorrent and deplorable conduct,” he said. “The university accepts that Ms Rosario Sanchez was the victim of unacceptable behaviour, particularly in the form of AA’s threat of violence.…However, it was apparent in evidence that Ms Rosario Sanchez perceived behaviour as unacceptable to her which may nonetheless be permissible in the form of free speech – albeit offensive and rude – such as the use of the acronym terf.”
www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/feminist-academic-loses-legal-case-against-university-over-terf-claims/ar-AAWtQIO

Discovereads · 06/10/2022 09:40

Rainbowshit · 06/10/2022 00:38

@Discovereads TERF was likened to a racial slur in a court recently.

And how did it go down? Link please would dearly like to read the courts opinion.

Ithoughtthiswastherehearsal · 06/10/2022 10:00

That is one crap poem 🤣🤣

More seriously, there’s an excellent article in The Atlantic about how the central idea of democracy is debate, ie the concept that you can change someone’s mind by persuading them. This idea - without which democracy cannot long survive - is being forgotten amid internet namecalling like this poem. Someone disagrees with you? Call them names. Call them a bitch or a terf or transphobic and most importantly: don’t listen to anything they say. That’s the approach that kills democracy and starts wars, and it’s on the rise in so so many different areas. Clearest on trans issues.

Anyway:

“The political culture of our polarized time, confrontational and dismissive, has many sources: the inflammatory incentives of social media; the cynical manipulations of billionaire-owned news outlets; the growing voice of once-marginalized groups; the very real material crises that beg for solutions; the frustration with how little a more civil, more hopeful politics has delivered in the past; the sense that other people are too invested in their privileges to change and, therefore, that the purpose of politics is to protect yourself from those people, instead of trying to reach them.

For these and other reasons, Americans have grown alienated from an idea central to democratic theory: that you change things by changing minds—by persuading.

As a result, social movements on the left that need to grow to win devote more energy to keeping people out than pulling people in. Many political campaigns seem to focus more on mobilizing sympathetic voters than on winning over skeptics. Leaders who attempt outreach to the unpersuaded are attacked by their own side as sellouts.”

Rest of article here, it also has some fascinating details of how Russian troll farms have exploited this weakness in Western democracy.

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/10/russia-social-media-troll-farm-persuasion-american-unity-book/671635/

DahliasLove · 06/10/2022 10:00

georgarina · 06/10/2022 09:33

the person I quoted said someone who is a strong women would be gender non conforming and it just seems so backwards to me.

Reminds me of a quote by a trans man defending the erasure of femininity from the birth experience - along the lines of 'labour was the hardest thing I've ever experienced. There was nothing feminine about it.'

If people can't see how sexist and regressive that is...I really have nothing else to say.

That is wild. And it honestly baffles me. Some progressive movements are in fact the antithesis.

TheStoop · 06/10/2022 10:33

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2022 10:36

@Discovereads
There is a lot of discussion around the offensiveness of the term TERF in the Allison Bailey case
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62e1307c8fa8f5649a40110a/Ms_A_Bailey__vs_Stonewall_Equality_Limited_Reserved.pdf

Allison did win her discrimination case against GCC.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2022 10:37

It is includes the likening to a racial slur

Pixiedust1234 · 06/10/2022 10:45

Discovereads · 06/10/2022 09:40

And how did it go down? Link please would dearly like to read the courts opinion.

Not sure where the racial part came from but it is definitely considered a derogatory term from this judgement. Harry Miller vs College of Police case. February 2020.

"245. I understand that ‘TERF’ is an acronym for ‘trans-exclusionary radical feminist’. It is used to describe feminists who express ideas that other feminists consider transphobic, such as the claim that trans women are not women, opposition to transgender rights and exclusion of trans women from women's spaces and organisations. It can be a pejorative term."

Pejorative according to various dictionaries
"belittling, contemptuous, decrying, degrading, demeaning, denigrative, denigratory, deprecatory, depreciative, depreciatory, derisory, derogative, derogatory, detractive, disdainful, disparaging, scornful, slighting, uncomplimentary"

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2022 10:51

The racial slur comment is from the Allison Bailey case I've linked to

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2022 10:53

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NellyBarney · 06/10/2022 10:55

I don't feel angry, or would avoid the Globe for publishing it. I think that this Alex needs to be treated like a toddler though. If he behaves like this, he is deserving of a pad on the head and a hug, and ideally councelling, but not of any rights, as those come with responsibilities and require a certain maturity (the poem sounds like it was written by 13 year old teenager).

DdraigGoch · 06/10/2022 11:00

There’s no consensus on it being a slur.
Are you suggesting that when TRAs say "TERFs can suck my dick", they are using the acronym as a term of endearment?

It's just like in Blackadder:

"I was under the impression that it was common maritime practice for a ship to have a crew."

"Opinion is divided on the subject."

"Really?"

"Yarrs. All the other captains say it is, I say it isn't."

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