To think that chest binders are harmful to children and shouldn't be encouraged?

[WandaWomblesaurus]

Trans charity accused of offering chest binders without parental consent

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/37b9fc6e-3d8b-11ed-b24d-96120f17513d?shareToken=b62ae7a914c919bf911bb69f54455fe8

How did we get to this point that people are saying this is brave and cheering it on?

AIBU - to think it's insanity
YABU - it's "lifesaving" and rainbow unicorns

These threads always make me laugh, because they do nothing except serve the image of tiny minded Mumsnetty-ness. I may no longer be with him, but my ex partner was more of a man than 99% of your tiny dicked, shiftless, horrible husbands.

My partner never wanted to go into the woman's changing rooms to perv on women, all he wanted was to be accepted in the men's room.

He went through almost 7 years of brutal, invasive treatment, and his knowledge that he'd been born in the wrong body never wavered. It wasn't a fashion statement, it wasn't a fad, it was who he was.

He was on a nationwide tv show (a dating show, no less) and nobody knew the difference between him and a "cis male"

This is assault . Child abuse . Who is sanctioning this absolute traversty?

The NHS?

Your ex partner thought/felt they were born in the wrong body. But they weren't, because genetically and biologically it's not possible.

I'm glad they are now happy, and "pass", as ultimately, everyone deserves to be happy. But it doesn't take away from the fact that they are biologically female, have been since they were born, and will be until they die.

If they want to live as a male, and go through the required hormones, counselling, surgeries etc etc to allow them to do that (live presenting as male) comfortably, then that is indeed their prerogative, but what they can't do is change reality.

If they were buried somewhere and dug up by forensic archaeologists in years to come, when their skeletal remains were examined, it would be determined (due to bone length, density, pelvic shape, skull and dental formation amongst other things), that they were an adult human female.

There's nothing small minded or nasty or discriminatory about saying that, it's just fact.

Demeaning other peoples male partners as derogatory names, on the other hand, stinks of meanness and small mindedness.

It's ok to be fully supportive of your ex's feelings and experiences, while it's also ok to state true biological fact. No hate or nastiness required.

@WhereTheFuckIsMyFuckingCoat

Interesting points you raise. However, you're wrong on several points.

He didn't "think" or indeed "feel" he was born in the wrong body. He WAS born in the wrong body. He knew from the age of 7/8 he wasn't "categorised" right. The NHS treated him from age 7/8.

He is, as far as I'm aware, happy. However, you're wrong when you say if he was dug up that he'd be "categorised" as female - from age 7/8, he went through treatment. Every single part of his body changed. Beyond appearing on the tv, multiple articles/studies have been done about him, because he was one of the first individuals to go through the extent of treatment he did on the NHS. I'll happily DM you the links to the articles. By the end of the treatment (and as his partner at the time, witnessed the extent of it) you'd never know the "difference".

As for what you say about "demeaning" other peoples "male" partners, I disagree. This site is full of posts day upon day about useless, shiftless men. My partner at the time stepped up to every single male "stereotype", because he knew what was expected of a woman. He knew what box society placed us in, and he fulfilled it and more.

If you knew why he was my ex partner, your gas would be at a peep.

He is, as far as I'm aware, happy. However, you're wrong when you say if he was dug up that he'd be "categorised" as female - from age 7/8, he went through treatment. Every single part of his body changed. Beyond appearing on the tv, multiple articles/studies have been done about him, because he was one of the first individuals to go through the extent of treatment he did on the NHS. I'll happily DM you the links to the articles. By the end of the treatment (and as his partner at the time, witnessed the extent of it) you'd never know the "difference".

Sorry but all those changes are cosmetic. There is a guy that has used extensive procedures to look like a cat, he is still a man.

Differences between men and women include:

Different lung capacity
Different genitalia
Different types of muscle
Different reproductive organs
Different bone structure
Different chromosomes

With all due respect, @takeme0uttonight - unless your ex was one of the very few (statistically) members of the population who were born with an intersex condition (or Disorders of Sex Development "DSDs" as they are otherwise known), then they weren't born in the wrong body, as there's no such thing.

If however they were born with DSD, and were (possibly as I suspect, owing to the language you use) "categorised" wrongly - I.e., indistinguishable genitalia which was categorised and purposely developed to be female, when it was later discovered that they had male chromosomes and/or male internal reproductive organs, then yes, they would/could be stated to be living in the "wrong sex" body. However if that is the case then your argument is disingenuous, because they wouldn't be classed as what we know as trans - they were born with a medical/genetic abnormality, which was being medically corrected.

If what you are claiming, they were simply born female and transitioned to identifying as male, then no amount of transitional surgery/hormones or otherwise will change their skeletal form, which would, despite what you say, be detected at autopsy or examination by a forensic pathologist as an adult human female, and that is if it was only the skeleton remaining and they didn't also have internal organs to go by.

Doesn't matter how many people can't tell that they weren't born male by looking at them in person, or on a tv show, doesn't change that they are biologically female and always will be. And it's not wrong, or nasty or small minded to say so.

Also, and I apologise for the length of my post, but from the NHS website, no hormonal or medical treatment will be undertaken on a child before they are at the very earliest approaching puberty, far less at age 7/8 (psychological and psychiatric input will however be provided):

Hormone therapy in children and young people
Some young people with lasting signs of gender dysphoria who meet strict criteria may be referred to a hormone specialist (consultant endocrinologist) to see if they can take hormone blockers as they reach puberty. This is in addition to psychological support.

And yes, it is degrading and insulting to call other people's male partners derogatory names, in spite of the number of people moaning about their "feckless men" on this site. The minute you start calling people's partners "small dicked", or whatever it was, you've lost the argument by highlighting your immaturity.

There's really no relevance to why your partner is now your ex, it adds nothing to this discussion, so I don't think my gas is going to be at a peep any time soon.

What do you mean in your second paragraph about your ex going into women’s changing rooms? Has anyone on this thread said this happens?

It makes me so sad 😔

I have big breasts and started developing very early. By 10 I had a decent pair to rival many older women 🤦🏻‍♀️ it was awful..... kids made fun of me in school, I hated jumping/running in PE, older men made nasty comments and ogled in the street....... maybe I would have considered binding ro hide them if I had been more uneducated and/or pressured.....

@takeme0uttonight you do know sex is binary and immutable right? No human being has ever changed sex? No amount of hormones and mutilating surgery will ever make someone become the opposite sex. You seem very invested in trying to convince us your ex girlfriend was a man? Why?

My partner never wanted to go into the woman's changing rooms to perv on women

Of course your exP didn’t - those are (generally) offences committed by the pervier end of the male population. People who’ve gone through male puberty and follow statistically male dominated offending patterns.

Even assuming that, somehow 12+ years ago in this country, your ex got hold of blockers and then took testosterone through puberty, her body still didn’t go through the same processes as a teenage boy’s.

And however well you think she ‘passes’ with clothes on, when undressed (or as skeletal remains in the future), her sex will be detectable.

As for being accepted in male changing rooms - most men wouldn’t have a problem with a trans ‘man’ changing alongside them, other than possibly a little embarrassment. We don’t feel physically threatened, and don’t for a minute imagine that trans men would be remotely interested in surreptitiously filming us.

@Mummyoflittledragon no - but it's the usual hysteria on threads like this "omg someone who isn't like us is only doing this so they can look at women in changing rooms" - do a wee search under "changing rooms" if you're unsure what I'm talking about

Yes I'm quite aware how biology works, thank you. He wasn't my ex girlfriend though, he was my ex boyfriend.

Utter guff.

@takeme0uttonight interesting to hear about your ex. Presumably (do correct if I'm wrong) he was very strongly of the opinion that men have male bodies and women have female bodies? (I.e. men are flat-chested, etc)

What does he make of the current view that you can be either gender regardless of your body - that physical sex is separate from gender, gender is a feeling, therefore women can be (and can be indistinguishable from) male-bodied people?

@takeme0uttonight

It wouldn't let me reply.

The idea that people can be born in the wrong body is nonsense on stilts. Your ex was (is?) a woman with gender dysphoria, like my niece.

Sex is determined at birth and can't be changed. Gender is as imaginary as unicorns or mermaids.

Why do you say boyfriend for someone you know is female? Were you in a lesbian relationship but your internalised homophobia prevented you from acknowledging this? You may call them your ‘boyfriend’. But isn’t that like a six year old calling someone their ‘wife’ when they pretend to be married?
You say your partner took on all the male stereotypes? What are those? Isn’t this just further proof that trans ideology is sexist and imposes regressive stereotypes on people?

What my ex did was effectively go through puberty for a second time. His voice broke, he grew hair in places previously unseen.

He didn't "get hold" of blockers, he was prescribed them. He then went through a series of horrendous surgeries, to realign his gender.

I don't "think" he passes well, I know he exists as a man. For the 820th time, he was on a mainstream dating show on tv. The person he was on a date with had no idea he had "previously been female". He has subsequently been in a same sex relationship with said person for 5 years, because (bizarrely and intrusively) all of the functions of his penis do the same thing a cis males does.

As to your point about changing rooms - if it were that simple, then why don't the majority of women have no problem with trans females changing in the ladies room? As you say, it's only an offence committed by "the pervier end of the population"

The whole trans thing on Mumsnet is hysteria whipped up by people with no lived experience, and I hope if your children ever go through this, you'll be far more accepting than you are online.

**Knittingmonster
@takeme0uttonight you do know sex is binary and immutable right? No human being has ever changed sex? No amount of hormones and mutilating surgery will ever make someone become the opposite sex. You seem very invested in trying to convince us your ex girlfriend was a man? Why?

Yes I'm quite aware how biology works, thank you. He wasn't my ex girlfriend though, he was my ex boyfriend.**

Right, so we have established that this person is an adult human female, living their life in a(n altered to be) male (appearing) body.

As @Knittingmonster says, sex in binary and immutable, therefore it is physiologically impossible to be born into the "wrong" body.

I am assuming that your partner suffered from body dysmorphia which of course is not the same as "born in the wrong body". Did they receive help?

I say boyfriend because I never knew him as female.

Your point about six year olds is funny, good job

I don't believe in souls or a higher being making a mistake when they dish out personalities to bodies, so when I hear "born in the wrong body" surely it more accurately means they are unhappy with their body? My disabled sister is unhappy with her body but never claims she was born in the wrong one or anything. It borders on Glen Hoddle esque superstition to me.

It would make far more sense to get to the bottom of why someone is unhappy with their body than to agree and say "you're right, your body is wrong, because only certain types of personality have bodies like yours, so let's get those breasts removed, eh?"

So your ex is in a another lesbian relationship? That’s fab she’s accepted her sexuality And no, a fake penis cannot do everything a male penis can, if you think that then that says a lot about your sexual experience and or intelligence

@Strictlyfanoftenyears yes he probably did suffer from body dysmorphia - and he did receive help through the NHS, who spent a very long time correcting it.

I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, in wanting to be the opposite sex because of how they are treated in society. Just be honest and say that's what it is rather than invoking gendered souls and higher beings and types of bodies having to match types of personality.

The rejection of the notion that either sex can be masculine or feminine as they like seems very Victorian to me.