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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Neo pronouns

174 replies

Sparklybutold · 28/09/2022 23:49

Last year - colleague was they/them, now per/pers.

So, are they a load of crap and will hopefully disappear soon or time for change and respect for peoples choices.

OP posts:
FrancescaContini · 29/09/2022 17:06

lifeturnsonadime · 29/09/2022 17:03

What do you think of the fact that a male Pedophile is in prison with women and children (there is a mother and baby unit?)

Am I a shameful bigot for saying this is simply wrong?

Because this is where your transgender agenda leads.

Shame @Mumtobabyhavoc can’t construct a comprehensible sentence.

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 17:19

potniatheron · 29/09/2022 15:54

Hi @Mumtobabyhavoc would you accept though that neopronouns are very difficult for people whose first language is not English especially for those languages whose pronouns change depending on the gendered object, putting them at a disadvantage in everyday interaction? And ditto for those with speech impediments, TBIs and other disabilities which affect speech especially pronouns which are the most basic building blocks of speech and therefore TBI (and dementia) sufferers have the most trouble with?

Yes. My whole point is the attitude of the person who refuses to show respect; bully; perpetuate hate and bigotry. I find it intolerable and cruel. That mums are instilling this in their children is shameful and far more harmful than exposure to different people who do nothing more than dress in a non-standard manner. I can't abide the hate masquerading as "We have to protect the children" or other such nonsense.

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 17:19

potniatheron · 29/09/2022 15:54

Hi @Mumtobabyhavoc would you accept though that neopronouns are very difficult for people whose first language is not English especially for those languages whose pronouns change depending on the gendered object, putting them at a disadvantage in everyday interaction? And ditto for those with speech impediments, TBIs and other disabilities which affect speech especially pronouns which are the most basic building blocks of speech and therefore TBI (and dementia) sufferers have the most trouble with?

Yes. My whole point is the attitude of the person who refuses to show respect; bully; perpetuate hate and bigotry. I find it intolerable and cruel. That mums are instilling this in their children is shameful and far more harmful than exposure to different people who do nothing more than dress in a non-standard manner. I can't abide the hate masquerading as "We have to protect the children" or other such nonsense.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/09/2022 17:33

That mums are instilling this in their children is shameful and far more harmful than exposure to different people who do nothing more than dress in a non-standard manner

My daughter dresses in non standard clothes, she wears boys clothes because she's autistic.and they are more comfortable.

I am the kind of mum you despise and call a bigot though because I want my daughter protected from ideology which would tell her that she isn't a girl because she doesn't conform.

I do not approve of preferred pro-nouns of any sort because they restrict how my daughter can express herself and do exactly the opposite of what you think they do.

They also lead to male pedophiles being imprisoned with women because they use female pronouns.

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 17:51

FrancescaContini · 29/09/2022 17:06

Shame @Mumtobabyhavoc can’t construct a comprehensible sentence.

Bully.

ProfessorFusspot · 29/09/2022 18:08

Sparklybutold · 29/09/2022 01:51

@Pixiedust1234

medium.com/matthews-place/the-history-of-neopronouns-366b1fee48c4

Apparently some of them go back to the 1800s

Thanks for the link, Sparklybutold. I was also curious about the claim that neopronouns have been in popular use for centuries. "Neopronoun" refers to (at least) two distinctly different things. I've mainly heard it used for self-assigned individual personal pronouns (e.g., I ask you to refer to me, specifically, as "per" or "fae" or "frog"). But apparently it can also refer to a new or repurposed word meant to be used universally instead of the standard third person singular personal pronouns (he, she, it, and arguably they). The article only deals with the second case.

If your colleague is asking that EVERYONE be referred to as per, then I agree there's precedent. But if your colleague is requesting to be referred to as per as a personal, individual exception while continuing to use and accept he, she, and they as the default for others who haven't also requested an exception, I don't see an historical precedent.

The example the author gives of "thon" as a contraction of "that one" is still a universal pronoun. It does refer to a specific person in the context of the conversation, just as he or she would, but the word "thon" is not specific to that person. Someone who says "I met thon in the park" where "thon" stands in for "my neighbour John Smith" would likely also use "thon" to refer to John's brother Sam Smith if Sam were the person being discussed instead of John. It's not specific to John, nor requested by John as a personal exception.

The other examples in the article are personal pronouns set up for everyone or for a particular group of people, not by request for a specific individual. They're either attempts to create a universal sex-neutral third person pronoun ("it" has negative connotations as it is often assumed to be reserved for inanimate objects, thus seen as dehumanising) or to refer to an alien race, e.g. in science fiction, who do not have sex characteristics as we know them. But these terms would be used for everyone who fit that description, without the individual having to ask.

Many languages use non-sex-specific personal pronouns by default. For example, in Hungarian the same word is used for he, she, and it. Person/per/pers/perself was used by Marge Piercy in Woman on the Edge of Time (1976) as the "standard" personal pronoun for all people, replacing both he and she in a fictional future society where men and women were equal. Everyone was referred to this way, including people from outside of that society (e.g. Connie, a time traveller from the 1970s). To leave the linguistic sex binary intact but have an individual person request to be described by a separate non-sex-specific term would have defeated the egalitarian/nonsexist purpose - it draws attention to and reinforces the binary, rather than erasing it.

Moonatics · 29/09/2022 18:13

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 15:51

No, it 's not. Educate yourself.

If its not that difficult, why dont you educate us?

JudgeJ · 29/09/2022 18:16

OnTheRunWithMannyMontana · 29/09/2022 00:00

100% agree with you there!

I can't be remotely bothered even trying to keep up with this week's acceptable terms for many things, it'll be different next week to give an opportuinty to lambast us for our 'insensitivity'.

XenoBitch · 29/09/2022 18:19

He/him, she/her, they/them.... anything else is just nonsense to me. If someone identifies as a cat (so catself pronouns), they need help and not people pandering to them.
Personally, I find referring to someone as their name even easier.

JudgeJ · 29/09/2022 18:20

Discodreams · 29/09/2022 13:05

I self-identify as royalty and my pronoun is “one”.
One believes the trans movement is similar to the rockabilly’s the 50s, in punk movement in the 1970s, the grunge subculture of the 1990’s…. And that in time, it will all fizzle out and people will simply “grow out of it”.
in the meantime, one thoroughly enjoyed and recommends Ben Elton’s book “identity crisis”

That's the solution, one is delighted to make that decision!

Bestkindaparty · 29/09/2022 18:22

eleanorsmellstrop · 29/09/2022 00:30

I saw a tutorial video the other day about “How to use frog/frogs pronouns and sentences”.

I seen that to. Also flowers as pronouns. So for example, flowers should be proud of flowerself

TrashyPanda · 29/09/2022 18:30

Pronouns haven't correlated to biological sex since the 60's

piffle

5zeds · 29/09/2022 18:36

Pronouns haven't correlated to biological sex since the 60's don’t be ridiculous. Where were you in the 70s 80s 90s 00s that you didn’t use sexed pronouns and what language were you speaking?

ErrolTheDragon · 29/09/2022 19:40

mrsjohnnylawrence · 29/09/2022 12:53

What do you do if you know someone has a pronoun other than Miss or Mr, but can't remember what it is? Is it per, mx.... you're unsure.. but you know it's not Mr or Miss.

What do you say when you ask for them?

So you walk up to the desk knowing you need to ask for XX Smith, but you don't remember their pronoun.

What do you say? "Hello, I'm here to see......... "

?

You wouldn't use a pronoun in that situation anyway, would you? You only use a pronoun to refer to someone/something that's been identified directly beforehand.
If you didn't know the name of the person then you'd have to ask by function eg 'I'm here to see the Lecturer in Ancient Runes'.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/09/2022 19:54

It's quite telling that @Mumtobabyhavoc has failed to engage with any of my posts.

Seemingly not quite prepared to call someone who says that the male pedophile incarcerated with women and babies is a man is a bully?

If he's a man where does one draw the line?

Notanotherwindow · 29/09/2022 20:23

It's all self obsessed bullshit, I have no patience with any of it. You are what you are, deal with it.

WalkthisWayUK · 29/09/2022 21:52

@Mumtobabyhavoc I do not need to validate anyone. Why should I?
I need to respect others to have their own beliefs. But I do not have to validate someone who is a man by ‘validating’ that he is a woman. He is not. He is free to choose to believe or change himself to be like a woman. And I would not discriminate against him if he applied for a job. But at the same time I do not have to ‘validate’ HIS belief system. MY belief system is that sex is real and men are not women.

So why on earth are you ‘validating’ others?

Would you ‘validate’ a white person by calling them a Black person because they said that this was their new persona. And if you wouldn’t, why not?

Sparklybutold · 29/09/2022 21:59

@ProfessorFusspot

I confess I need to reread your post in the morning. It sounds far too intelligent!

OP posts:
WalkthisWayUK · 29/09/2022 22:03

In the same way - no gay person needs me to validate them. I do not need to call them ‘gay so and so’ whatever.

Why do they not need me to validate them?

Because being gay is just who they are. It’s what they want to do and be, and I don’t need to do anything except respect that. And being gay is not all of who they are - we are multi-faceted so most gay people would not want to be just defined by their sexuality either.

Validation is a very new thing - and is all about other people being demanded to conform to someone else’s play, ideology, fantasies or feelings about themselves.

Does someone who is disabled need or want validation? No. They are disabled and again need respect and support to be able to access opportunities as much as a non disabled person.

Validation = in the dictionary = the action of checking or proving the validity or accuracy of something.
so NO I do not want to have to say that something is true when it is. Not.
And is also means
recognition or affirmation that a person or their feelings or opinions are valid or worthwhile
Again NO from me - I do not want to be forced to affirm someone else’s fantasy. This is not what I am ‘for’. I have my own agency, my own beliefs and my own thoughts. No one else has the right to demand that I affirm theirs. It is not for me to affirm that a man who wants to be a woman is good or worthwhile. That is their judgement to make for their own benefit and self worth. It should not need me to say ‘that is good’ in the same way as being gay or disabled does not need me to say ‘that is worthwhile’. I just need to be respectful and also have that respect back for whatever my differences or similarities are.

Scianel · 29/09/2022 22:10

I don't use pronouns that don't correlate to correct sex. I'll talk around it if necessary and in private I'll just use the biologically correct ones.
I'm not having my speech compelled or forced into someone else's belief system.

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 22:25

TheClitterati · 29/09/2022 08:27

Alternatively I will declare he/him pronouns (I'm a woman) and totally fuck with them.

Bring it on.

But, why? That is just bullying. Why would you do that? Why not just live and let live?

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 22:48

lifeturnsonadime · 29/09/2022 19:54

It's quite telling that @Mumtobabyhavoc has failed to engage with any of my posts.

Seemingly not quite prepared to call someone who says that the male pedophile incarcerated with women and babies is a man is a bully?

If he's a man where does one draw the line?

No need to be a bully. I didn't reply because I don't live on the internet and only just saw your nasty post after getting an alert from MN that I was mentioned in a post. You really must have quite a chip on your shoulder and for that I am truly sorry.

lifeturnsonadime · 29/09/2022 22:50

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 22:25

But, why? That is just bullying. Why would you do that? Why not just live and let live?

Because it leads to male pedophiles being housed in prison with vulnerable women and their children.

But I don't expect you to respond to this point given that I've asked several times and you've declined to do so.

You just enjoy calling people who don't follow the gender religion bullies.

Why is that? Who are you ultimately protecting, and why?

lifeturnsonadime · 29/09/2022 22:52

Mumtobabyhavoc · 29/09/2022 22:48

No need to be a bully. I didn't reply because I don't live on the internet and only just saw your nasty post after getting an alert from MN that I was mentioned in a post. You really must have quite a chip on your shoulder and for that I am truly sorry.

I'm sorry I'm a bully for calling a man who has raped children a man?

No, he's not a woman.

Only one bully here, also a nonce enabler.

Keep talking. We see what you are supporting.

Kumri · 29/09/2022 23:25

jeaux90 · 28/09/2022 23:58

Pronouns are bollocks. I mean seriously, who gives a shit about how someone talks about them when they aren't there!

This. I’m female but if people want to call me “him/his” I wouldn’t know - because I wouldn’t be there, otherwise they’d be saying “you/yours”. But if I did know, I wouldn’t mind at all. Whatever. Do not give a shit.

People who invent fake words like “Mx” and “pers” and try to force others to use them or face abuse and being suspended from work? I do not like those people. Those people are bullies. Pronouns are not their biggest issue.

In years to come we’ll laugh about all this. Nothing stays cool for long. It was cool to be trans, in the 1990s teens were anorexic instead, I expect there will be a new unhealthy obsession along soon enough.