To blame Tory/Brexit voters for this shitshow

[Kendodd]

They "knew what they voted for".

The Scottish electorate DID vote for Conservative MPs which counted towards the overall Conservative total seats in Westminster.

It is a feature of democracy that areas of countries, even large swathes, do not get the government they voted for.

Look at the electoral maps for the UK and USA, for example.

If your implied argument is that Scotland voted for more SNP MPs than any other party and that is then a justification for independence.....well, that argument would apply to large parts of Scotland that didn't vote SNP.

Not to mention the Mid-Western states in the United States!

But that's not how democracy works and the USA as well as the UK are unitary sovereign states. It doesn't work that way in international law either. This means your logic is flawed.

That then leads onto Brexit for which there's two facts to note with respect to Scotland:

1. Slightly more than 1million people in Scotland voted Brexit. SNP had more Leave voters than any other party in Scotland.

2. Scotland had the second lowest turnout in the UK in the 2016 referendum. A third of voters didn't vote so presumably didn't care. 1million + voted Leave and 1.5 million voted Remain.

3. The Brexit referendum was won in Northern Ireland and Scotland Leave votes along with those two having the lowest turnout in the UK. A better turnout and Remain might have won.

Point is, Scotland isn't of one mind nor did Scotland vote. As mentioned, the UK is a unitary sovereign state and it was only the UK that was an EU member. Therefore, it's not debatable it was a UK wide vote just as the UK General Elections are also UK wide.

Nothing stopping you being bitter about it though.

It is not a feature of democracy that so many people are not represented- it's a feature of our bizzarre system

The OP @Kendodd is unreasonable here precisely because they are not acknowledging voters from these parties all voted for Brexit too:

Labour
Lib Dems
SNP
Provisional Sinn Féin
SDLP

And so on.

It certainly wasn't all Conservative voters. People voted for Brexit for many different reasons.

The conflict resolution peoples favourite, Dennis Bradley voted for Brexit hoping for a revolution that harms the UK, for example.

You'd have to include a good range of groups here for your point with the thread to stand on its own feet. Focusing on one group of voters is disingenuous.

Incorrect. It is a feature of democracy repeated the world over. Even PR systems have this feature - just look at the Republic of Ireland where Provisional Sinn Féin got more votes than any single party yet their voters are NOT represented in the current Irish Government.

That's democracy and this is a feature.

OP Blame whom ever you like, in RL I'm pretty positive no one gives a shit. I know I don't as a Tory voter and some one who voted Brexit😆

So crack on.....

Isn't that their choice ?

The responses on this thread make me hope for an independent Scotland even more.

Is this you changing your argument now?

The point was that Irish voters who voted PSF were denied representation in the Irish Government by FF and FG. The people didn't choose this themselves, so it is a feature of democracy as the democratic system allows for it.

It's always been a feature of democracy that areas of countries do not get the government they voted for. And it's always been democracy that this is also not a reason for independence too which isn't a democratic right.

Just don't moan about the consequences when they impact you or someone you actually do care about (if there are any such people).

Well that's a given. If you gave a shit about our country you wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

@DownNative Thats gibberish. NI voted remain 56% to 44%

If you gave a shit about our country you wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

That's just an awful comment. I have friends who voted remain and leave. My leave voting friends love this country just as much as any of those voting remain. They just had different life experiences that led them to make different decisions.

That's just a regional breakdown. And Northern Ireland had the LOWEST turnout - arguably, it wasn't as bothered about the EU as England and Wales, for example.

But:

1. Was Northern Ireland named on the ballot paper in 2016?

No.

2. Was Northern Ireland an EU member state in 2016?

No.

Fact is, it was a UK wide vote and only the UK was an EU member. Therefore, only the UK is a unitary sovereign state - not England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

All emphasised by the fact the EU only deals with the UK Government. Not the devolved administrations in Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff.

Suggest you understand how politics works first.

Loving the alternative facts www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36614443.amp

Yeah, I am hoping for that too. I am English.

WhileMyGuitarGentlyWeeps · Today 14:24

FayeGovan · Today 12:45

"The responses on this thread make me hope for an independent Scotland even more."

"Yeah, I am hoping for that too. I am English."

Me too. Half Scottish.

The media are partly to blame as well. We're all living in a Murdochracy.

Remember Blair flying to Oz to worship at his feet. I'll take Steer Calmer seriously when he tells the dirty digger to do one.

They are not alternative facts.

They ARE political realities and I note you've failed to dispute the facts I've outlined. Obviously, you cannot since:

1. The ballot paper never mentioned Northern Ireland specifically.

2. The UK Supreme Court ruled ONLY Westminster has the power to negotiate. Not Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff.

3. The EU made it clear they would only deal with the UK Government.

4. Only the UK was an EU member.

The UK is a unitary sovereign state and the 2016 vote was a UK wide one.

Try again.

The bit highlighted in your link is the important part of it all and key to the entire Brexit negotiations.

The link only proved my point. Not yours. It was A UK wide vote.

@DownNative You said NI votes for brexit. But the results say Voters in NI voted remain.
I don’t really care to argue further. Facts are facts no matter how much gibberish is typed

Yes, they/we had to live with it, but they/we certainly didn't shut up about it!

(not sure whether to say they or we, as I was moderately Eurosceptic till around 2003, when I changed to the complete opposite. In any case, there was no expectation of silence!)

Yes, it's an awful comment, but so is the opposite which you get more often: Remain voters are all traitors, hate Britain, etc.

No, I didn't!

I said the Leave votes in Northern Ireland and Scotland gave Leave the win over Remain overall.

Had Northern Ireland and Scotland at least matched England and Wales for turnout, Remain likely would have won.

Northern Ireland and Scotland had the lowest turnout which makes a huge difference to the overall vote result.

Next time, read carefully.

No system is perfect and at least with PR you can count the votes as to who voted for whom. It is more transparent.