Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Labour would be even worse grrrr

194 replies

Explaintome · 27/09/2022 18:27

In the pub last night, rolling news headlines on the TV and we talked briefly about rising interest rates/falling pound.

One man trotted out the now tired line "Labour would be even worse".

"Why?" I said, "what is it that they would do less well?" He couldn't answer, as I find is often the case with people who are certain Labour would be worse. They can't tell me why.

They may be right, they are certainly entitled to that view, but surely to be so convinced about any opinion you must also have some idea of why that is?

This is a middle aged man, does an ordinary, low level management/sales job. He'd tell you himself, he's not particularly clever and he's not interested in/doesn't undertlstand politics or the economy and yet he's so convinced of this view. It was probably unfair of me to challenge him knowing he wouldn't have an argument, but there seem to be a lot like him and frankly it's scary. 12 years and still people are convinced Tory is the best answer, even if they don't know why.

FWIW he's a nice man with other attributes, an encyclopedic music knowledge and good company provided you don't try and talk about the news 😆

OP posts:
BloodyHellKen · 28/09/2022 09:33

Florenz · 27/09/2022 21:30

That might be so but it doesn't stop people reading it. Why doesn't the Guardian try to become more popular instead of only printing negative stories that make people miserable?

🤣 I agree. After growing up jn a Guardian reading household and about 25 years reading it myself I had to stop. It is a miseryfest of identity politics.

Does anyone remember the Family section? It was as if each week they would try and out do the depressing sad stories from thd week before.

MrsSkylerWhite · 28/09/2022 09:39

Kissingfrogs25

“I agree. He is painful to listen to, like watching paint dry. I am sure he is a nice enough guy, but he has no charisma and his speeches remind me of someone speaking at a wake. The dull, monotone drone makes me switch off immediately“

good god, do people seriously vote based on their perception of charisma or entertainment value?
ever read a manifesto?

Explaintome · 28/09/2022 09:46

MrsSkylerWhite · 28/09/2022 09:39

Kissingfrogs25

“I agree. He is painful to listen to, like watching paint dry. I am sure he is a nice enough guy, but he has no charisma and his speeches remind me of someone speaking at a wake. The dull, monotone drone makes me switch off immediately“

good god, do people seriously vote based on their perception of charisma or entertainment value?
ever read a manifesto?

I don't know if this is true. It's a line spouted by people who've never listened to him.

I heard him interviewed on R4 this morning and I thought he did really well. He had real answers and could explain properly when challenged, rather than the bluster we're used to.

OP posts:
BloodyHellKen · 28/09/2022 10:03

Cassillero · 27/09/2022 21:55

I haven't read all the responses but I just want to say this.

No-one speaks for us. I was a member of the Labour Party until 2019. I left them because of Self ID.

During covid it became very clear to me that there was absolutely NO opposition. There was no one at all who spoke up and said perhaps we might be a bit fucked if we destroyed small business, continued printing money, transferring wealth to the already rich, and then on top of that transferring billions in a futile war against Russia.

We are where we are. I cannot understand how anyone at all can look at where we are and seriously think we can vote our way out of this shitstorm.

@Cassillero nicely put, and I completely agree with you.

I left before you largely down to identity politics and the influence of Momentum but have stayed away because of self ID and the sheer nastiness and dismissive attitude of Labour supporters towards the electorate. You see it on here all the time - if you don't vote Labour you are thick as pig shit/turkey voting for Christmas/evil etc etc the insults are endless and unnecessary and are definitely not the way to win votes. As far as I can see a large part of Labours schtick is hurling insults at people who don't vote for them.

Labour should have had an easy job over the last few years but they have been very, very uninspiring. On top of that they actually wanted MORE lockdowns and I do think they might have gone down the vaccine mandate route like Canada if given half a chance which worries me.

I'm not a natural Tory voter and I've only voted for them in local elections because the alternatives are all 'be kind, TWAW' people but I will not be voting Labour again unless they ditch the self ID, identity politics nonsense and become a credible party full of proper grown-ups that put forward good workable policies rather than insults.

@Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase

I’m convinced that Labour will win the next general election. The tories have been absolutely abysmal. How any sane person could vote for them is beyond me

You don't need to vote Conservative to keep Labour out, you just need to not vote Labour and that is the problem for the Labour Party - the conservatives are bad, but Labour have little appeal for many.

Octomore · 28/09/2022 10:06

Bacibaci · 27/09/2022 21:56

Below I will copy and paste a large part of Labour shadow minister Lisa Nandy’s speech yesterday and have highlighted in bold her comment on her plans for housing. All these policies and focus on making the economy work for all I can get behind. I had a quick look on Daily Mail website and no surprise not a squeak from them on all of this.

“Now Liz Truss says her government will grow our economy by turning the North into Singapore-on-Sea. So they can stash their wealth in our towns and cities, pushing up the cost of housing and dodging tax. Slashing taxes for big corporations so the rest of us can grind for a living in an Amazon warehouse. Handing £55,000 to millionaires while people can’t afford to pay their rent, feed their kids and heat their homes. More money for millionaires than the whole North of England. In the words of Liz Truss – That. Is. A. Disgrace.

Conference. It’s time to stand up and fight again. Not just to see off the Tories. But to build the country I’ve believed in all my life – where everyone can contribute and everyone has a stake in our future.

It will be about the real wealth creators – the women and men who work in our shops, who drive our buses, who deliver our mail, who produce our food, who care for our families and teach our children – who make sure we have what we need to live every day of our lives. To those people, we say you are the foundation of our economy.

We believe that when people have a stake in the outcome, they work harder, they try longer, they think more creatively and they do more. The people of our country are our great untapped asset. Labour will tilt the balance of power back in their favour.

In the first 100 days, we will end fire and rehire, repeal the 2016 anti-trade union Act and raise wages for the lowest paid. And we’ll usher in a great rebalancing of power, with wealth, security and opportunity spread across the whole country.

They say you can power a modern economy using only a handful of people in a handful of places in one small corner of the country. We say that’s like trying to fly a jet on one engine. This country doesn’t belong to a few of them, it belongs to all of us.

So we will invest to bring clean energy jobs to the industrial and coastal towns across Britain, so that young people in places that were once the engines of Britain can power us through the next century like their parents and grandparents powered us through the last. The road to net zero is paved with a million good jobs, and we’ll bring them to Britain.

Empowering our brilliant leaders – Steve, Tracy, Andy, Marvin, Shaun – with new powers to drive growth in every part of Britain. And handing power back to our people with a community right-to-buy land and assets – the football clubs, historic buildings and pubs that make a place home. So those with skin in the game, who are in it for the long haul, will feel the whole system pulling in behind them. That – Liz Truss – is how you grow the economy.

But I have learnt that progress is not inevitable. If we want to live in a country where children don’t have to go to school too hungry to learn. Where people with disabilities can live the richer, larger lives they deserve. Where people don’t have to fear growing old without dignity or warmth. If we want that country, we have to go out and fight for it every single day.

So I am asking you today to get ready. Because together, with every person, in every place we’re going to rebuild this country from the ground up. And I can say to you today that in government, I will make it my priority to tackle the housing crisis because nothing, nothing is more important than a home.

The Tories have turned housing into a racket. Incentivising speculation and profiteering while millions languish on waiting lists in cold damp homes. So we will mend the deliberate vandalism of our social housing stock. Because the idea of a home for life handed on in common ownership to future generations. Is an idea worth fighting for.
**
Council housing is not a dirty word. So today, I can announce we will be the first government in a generation to restore social housing to the second largest from of tenure. This will be our mantra. Council housing, council housing, council housing.

We’re going to rebuild our social housing stock and bring homes back into the ownership of local councils and communities. With home ownership opened up to millions more.

And for private renters we will tilt the balance of power back to you through a powerful new renters charter and a new decent homes standard – written into law. Because security in your home, the right to make your home your own and most of all the right to live in a home fit for human habitation, is non-negotiable. Because housing isn’t a market. It’s a fundamental human right.”

I can get behind all of that.

And while the TWAW movement is a concern, TW are not the biggest threat to women in this country.

Lack of secure affordable housing is a big factor in preventing women from leaving abusive partners who kill them. And that's without touching on the impacts of poverty, which have been shown to disproportionately affect women.

Tuscany83 · 28/09/2022 10:13

nancydroo · 27/09/2022 18:44

I used to vote Labour back in the day Blair and the third way, husband still supports Labour. In recent years (post Miliband) they've been vile in the opposition. I consider them a hate party and would never vote for them again. The anti-semitism is rife. Under Corbyn they were a proxy party for the SWP who felt closer to power. The party is a disgrace now if they think they've got any chance in being power should probably reform, rebrand and rename to convince ex-Labour voters to return. I agree with the man. Labour would be worse.

You are 2.5 years out of date.

poetryandwine · 28/09/2022 10:43

I happen to agree with @MrsSkylerWhite and @Explaintome that firstly Keir Starmer has a fine speaking style and secondly, there are more important things on which to base one’s vote.

But credit where credit is due, in her post of 19.15 on 27/09, @Kissingfrogs25 clearly identified her opinion on Starmer’s style as just that. She made no leaps of logic.

The same cannot be said about her post of 19.17. The claims about rampant racism in the Labour Party are now very old and have become false. One Labour MP has recently said something very wrong and rightly been suspended. Margaret Hodge herself, a main victim of the old anti-Semitism, highly approves the recent work to move on and Starmer’s leadership on this. As mentioned upthread, Victoria Starmer is herself Jewish, brought up observant with Israeli relatives.

As for @Kissingfrogs25 ’sstatements about how the Labour Party is full of violent people, without evidence this is truly hitting beliw the belt and an excellent example of why she should be ignored.

MarshaBradyo · 28/09/2022 10:49

BloodyHellKen · 28/09/2022 09:33

🤣 I agree. After growing up jn a Guardian reading household and about 25 years reading it myself I had to stop. It is a miseryfest of identity politics.

Does anyone remember the Family section? It was as if each week they would try and out do the depressing sad stories from thd week before.

I used to love The Guardian, bought it on the weekend and have happy memories of relaxing around drinking coffee reading the weekend papers

It has become a tougher landscape so they’ve gone in a new direction so as not to sink completely. A shame though

MotherofPearl · 28/09/2022 11:16

I find it pretty funny (and also exasperating) that people are condemning Starmer as lacking in charisma and having a boring speaking style. Not only do I 1) disagree and 2) not especially value charisma as an essential quality for politicians, but also:

HAVE YOU HEARD LIZ TRUSS SPEAK?! If you're looking for a wooden speaking style and a total charisma vacuum, look no further!

nancydroo · 28/09/2022 11:26

I used to read the Guardian and Observer regularly years ago and it was interesting and matched my political view and values. Slowly it started getting preachy and I couldn't read it without rolling my eyes. Husband pays the annual for it and it is all he reads. I try to access as many different papers to gather a more rounded view of the same situation. I dip into it now and then but to me it's become unreadable and I cannot relate to it at all. It feels like a student paper at times and I've grown out of it.

KassandraOfSparta · 28/09/2022 11:35

Floating voter here, over time I have voted Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem.

Truss - disaster. For the IMF to come out and say she's got it wrong is scary. Keir Starmer is a lot better than Corbyn and if it were a straight Presidential style race between Truss and Starmer, I would vote Starmer.

What puts me off is Angela Rayner. She is AWFUL. Gobby, loud, shouty, inarticulate, but simultaneously lightweight and without the intellect to grasp the big picture. Probably an excellent union rep and an effective backbench MP working for her constituents but they need to ditch her VERY quickly before the next election looms.

BloodyHellKen · 28/09/2022 11:37

nancydroo · 28/09/2022 11:26

I used to read the Guardian and Observer regularly years ago and it was interesting and matched my political view and values. Slowly it started getting preachy and I couldn't read it without rolling my eyes. Husband pays the annual for it and it is all he reads. I try to access as many different papers to gather a more rounded view of the same situation. I dip into it now and then but to me it's become unreadable and I cannot relate to it at all. It feels like a student paper at times and I've grown out of it.

Completely agree @nancydroo The Guardian and much of left wing politics full stop has become very preachy.

Also I find it very disheartening and not at all inspiring to continually be told Tory voter = evil, selfish people, Labour = the good, kind people. Nothing is that black and white and I expect most people as they get older come to realise it is more nuanced than good vs bad and become disinterested in 'the good people' vibe the Labour party like to think they are.

Thereisnolight · 28/09/2022 11:39

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 19:19

I think you have to keep in mind that not everyone is very good at articulating their reasons for things. It doesn't always mean they don't exist. Some people also feel embarrassed if they don't sound as polished as they'd like, especially if the person they are speaking to does.

At a guess, he just may not feel like the LP has offered any really plausible alternative suggestions in terms of dealing with the current economic issues. Or that they are such a bunch on numb-nuts that even with a good idea they'd likely screw it up anyway. Or maybe that if they managed some things better, they would make other things worse, and he doesn't like that trade-off.

In any case I think the background is that the economic situation across the west is really pretty serious and no governments of any type seem to be making much headway. Canada, led by the Liberals who are not dissimilar from the LP, also has it's dollar at the lowest point it's been at for a long time.

I thought this too!

Person in pub ventures an opinion, is rounded upon by angry argumentative know-it-all and quickly retreats.

BloodyHellKen · 28/09/2022 11:42

KassandraOfSparta · 28/09/2022 11:35

Floating voter here, over time I have voted Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem.

Truss - disaster. For the IMF to come out and say she's got it wrong is scary. Keir Starmer is a lot better than Corbyn and if it were a straight Presidential style race between Truss and Starmer, I would vote Starmer.

What puts me off is Angela Rayner. She is AWFUL. Gobby, loud, shouty, inarticulate, but simultaneously lightweight and without the intellect to grasp the big picture. Probably an excellent union rep and an effective backbench MP working for her constituents but they need to ditch her VERY quickly before the next election looms.

Despite saying I wouldn't vote Labour up thread I actually have a lot of admiration for Angela Raynor. I hail from the same part of the country and I understand and grew up with many women like her (and I still have a large streak of northern attitude despite living in the south for most of my life). I think she has guts and has achieved a lot to get to where she is.

Unfortunately she isn't very diplomatic which I really think matters in politics. As the old saying goes you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Bearsan · 28/09/2022 12:01

Greed now runs the country.
Politicians are just pawns for big industry.
I think that they are all shit.
Trouble with labour is that they scare the "middle class done ok and put a bit by from working forever" type. Thinking that they will lose the tiny gain that they have made if labour get in.
I was always a labour voter but personally have been better off under the Tories.
But I will never actually vote for them because of the cutbacks to services, old fashioned bigoted, racist etc views amongst most of them plus many other things.
No party represents me because there are barely any politicians with ordinary backgrounds at the top anymore.

MoltenLasagne · 28/09/2022 12:10

Right now I honestly believe we wouldn't be in a worst state if Corbyn had got in and tried to turn us into Venezuela 2.0. And I say that knowing how awful Momentum are and as a swing voter.

Redqueenheart · 28/09/2022 12:23

I think anyone who thinks that Labour, the Lib Dem or the Green could be worse than the current Tory lot needs their heads checked.

We have truly hit rock-bottom after more than a decade of Tory madness.

Having different opinion is fine but at this stage the evidence is so overwhelming that the Tories have destroyed the country.

We should all be beyond blind political allegiance at this stage and accept this is an unfolding catastrophe that needs urgent action.

Harva · 28/09/2022 13:02

It can’t be much worse than this….can it OP?

Remember ‘we’ voted for this. ‘We’ believed the Tory ‘levelling up’ agenda, ‘we’ believed the lies told about Brexit…and look at the sh*tshow we are left with.

Cornettoninja · 28/09/2022 14:36

It can’t be much worse than this….can it OP?

well Jacob Rees Moggs hasn’t had a bash at leader yet, or Michael Fabricant.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2022 15:34

What puts me off is Angela Rayner. She is AWFUL. Gobby, loud, shouty, inarticulate, but simultaneously lightweight and without the intellect to grasp the big picture.

I like her a lot. I think there is a lot of class/gender prejudice filtering how people perceive her, because she has an accent and is a relatively young woman. But she talks a lot of sense.

And there's no way someone gets to where she is by being stupid

BloodAndFire · 28/09/2022 16:18

MoltenLasagne · 28/09/2022 12:10

Right now I honestly believe we wouldn't be in a worst state if Corbyn had got in and tried to turn us into Venezuela 2.0. And I say that knowing how awful Momentum are and as a swing voter.

Maybe you wouldn't be worse off.

But anyone Jewish, or anyone who has any Jewish friends or loved ones, would be.

Mumoblue · 28/09/2022 16:21

The Tories couldn’t run a fucking bath right now. I find it very hard to believe ANYONE could do it worse.

BigWoollyJumpers · 28/09/2022 16:37

Wouldn't it be lovely if we had more parties to choose from? Labour keep banging on about PR - but that only works if you have a range of parties to choose from. I would love a few more middle/left, middle/right, middle/middle. Then you can have all the shouty and weird extremes at each end.

Cornettoninja · 28/09/2022 16:41

BigWoollyJumpers · 28/09/2022 16:37

Wouldn't it be lovely if we had more parties to choose from? Labour keep banging on about PR - but that only works if you have a range of parties to choose from. I would love a few more middle/left, middle/right, middle/middle. Then you can have all the shouty and weird extremes at each end.

PR is more likely to give better chances to fringe parties and encourage a better spectrum of political representation, FPTP has led to our system being dominated by two parties.

Florenz · 28/09/2022 16:41

IF we had PR Labour would split up into at least two, and probably more than two, separate parties. There'd be splinter parties from the Tories too.