To be furious with adult dd

[Nolitoad]

I have 2 dc, dd (23) and ds (13). Dd does not live at home but I had her round for dinner last night. I was in the kitchen serving up and when I brought it in I saw that she had poured a glass of wine for herself, me and her brother.

I immediately remarked on this and said ds is not allowed to drink. She said really well he is when he is with me. DS has sleepovers at her house 1-2 times per month and has done since she moved out around a year ago. When I asked her what she meant it turns out she has being allowing him to drink when he stays over.

I didn’t want to have a big row with her in front of ds so just whisked the glass away from him. Later in the evening I asked her why she had allowed him to do this she told me my approach to alcohol is wrong and she said she wants to introduce him to alcohol in a safe and structured way. When I said it’s not her place to decide this she said the only way my approach is going to end is him drinking in secret in a park. I am really cross with her as he has been staying over at hers since he was 12 and she has been giving him alcohol during this time without mentioning it as she knows I would disagree. I know ds is also guilty of this and knows he is not allowed to drink so will deal with him also.

I messaged their father who said he didn’t know this was happening and it’s not ideal but it’s hardly the end of the world as we can’t micromanage their relationship.

AIBU to be really annoyed about this?

www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2011/12/12/143521104/french-lessons-why-letting-kids-drink-at-home-isn-t-tres-bien

It's not her decision to make. A mature person would have a decision with you not go behind your back. She isn't mature enough to look after her brother unfortunately.

For PPs, jech.bmj.com/content/68/3/268 shows no strong evidence concerning early drinking leading to alcohol dependency increasing. The studies I did see that showed otherwise had a comparator of no drinking before 21 which perhaps wouldn't be the right comparator for the UK culture and university and legal drinking earlier than 21 compared with USA's societal preferences for early driving and guns over alcohol. Haven't seen whether the no drinking by 21 includes lifelong teetotallers which again might not be the right comparator for a UK culture?

From personal experience, being given alcohol by a trusted adult at that age does not mean you will have a healthy relationship with alcohol in the future.
As the parent, do what you feel is right.

Yes it gives them a taste for it which they might not otherwise have developed until later or not at all.

It sounds like this is more to do with her wanting to play the 'cool older sister' than any actual worries about her brother's relationship with alcohol.

She's rebelling against you by taking decisions like this into her own hands - it's really immature and disrespectful to you.

I think you should talk to your son about the reasons why you don't want him drinking alcohol so young. Look at some resources with him online about alcohol, and the difference in the way his body will respond to it at his current age to when he is older.

Banning him from staying at his sister's house is tempting but will probably only reinforce the 'cool older sister' vibe she's going for and strengthen the bond.

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by this

I personally don’t think it makes much difference whether you allow a small amount of alcohol with meals or not. The context of adolescent drinking is very different- spirits mixed with sweet mixers to mask the taste at parties etc. They need very different skills and knowledge to resist and navigate these situations and deal with peer pressure etc.

Yanbu, I'm surprised he liked it though. Mine were allowed alcohol at that age, one refused completely because it tasted horrible to her, the other liked cider (not fruit ones, the French style which is sweet and 2% we didn't let her have the fruit ones as they taste like pop). Both well adjusted adults now, neither drink that much

Just the first thing that came into my head

If your son can drink a glass of wine at 12 (which would turn most 12 year old's stomachs!), just how much is he drinking at his sister's? Wine is quite an adult taste, unless it's a sweet wine.

The thing is, if she thinks it's acceptable to do this behind your back with wine at age 12, at what age does she start cracking open the vodka/few cans for him?

İt's just not on really that she's done this and you've only found out a year on. My guess is she is so used to pouring his wine she may have slipped up doing so whilst in your presence. What else is she letting him do without you knowing. What next, the odd joint?

No more sleepovers!

The fact both of them haven’t thought to discuss this with you the whole time it’s been happening doesn’t scream “healthy approach” to me.

She’s not stupid - presumably she grew up with you, and wasn’t drinking with you at 12? Presumably she’s never seen her brother drink at home before? Presumably, she knew she was giving him his first ever drink?

It looks like until now it’s been quite secretive behaviour. Now he’s at an age where she thinks it might be more palatable for you to know and had her justification all prepared.

Nobody needs a glass of wine with a meal, not even adults. Then again I grew up poor - we ate off trays on our laps and had a glass of “council pop” after. I never drunk in parks or fields with my friends? I think this obsession with being “like the French” is definitely a posh folk thing!

I also don't think that it's up to her.

Is she so desperate to drink that she can't stop herself on the few nights her teenage brother stays over?

She has a point - when I got to uni, you could absolutely tell who hadn't had much exposure to alcohol before arriving.

I was given small amounts as a child with Sunday lunch so it didn't seem like an exciting, forbidden thing when I was older, but I was well below the age where I might want to do it to feel grown-up as a tween. FWIW I very rarely drink as an adult.

It's not her place to decide this. She's actually teaching him to drink secretly - without telling you. That's a problem. Also, my mother allowing me a little'treat' of whisky and orange, with her, if we were in alone, did not stop me binge drinking as a teen and young adult. Infact, it gave me rather a taste for it, and I still love all forms of whisky and most spirits.

yanbu op, I'd be livid over this. I'm laughing at all the people saying it's no problem, if a family member went against your rules in how you bring up your kids you'd go mad.

Whatever people's views on kids drinking booze here is irrelevant, you are the parent and he is YOUR child. Within reason, you can discipline/raise him as you wish and she or nobody else has any right to undermine that.

I'd not have your ds staying with dd again, she can't be trusted. I'd also be discipling your son for this, he knew what he did was wrong and was complicit.

I think people who drank as children have a very inaccurate perception of those who didn’t!

You are wrong to expect your DD to parent your sibling. Which is what you're doing by expecting her to act the same way as you would.

I was allowed to drink from a young age at home (watered down wine etc). I still went off the rails booze wise until I was mid 20s.

Age 13/14 my older sibling gave me my first cigarettes, was with me when I first got so drunk I vomited, and encouraged me to date men 6+ years older than me... My parents had no idea, be glad she's told you!

MN is a bizarre place. I read a thread yesterday where a woman gave her - admittedly a few years younger - daughter alcohol-free beer and was roundly berated, but apparently OP is unreasonable to object to her young teen, with his still-developing brain, being given full glasses of wine at, what 12% abv?

Banning him from staying at his sister's house is tempting but will probably only reinforce the 'cool older sister' vibe she's going for and strengthen the bond

so you suggest that for that reason to let it continue? DD can't be trusted so arrangement ends. Also if ds told friends about this the op could get into trouble if safeguarding found out.

My parents had this 'drink at home to break the taboo' attitude from childhood and I developed an incredibly toxic relationship with alcohol. They were very moderate drinkers themselves, a glass of wine with dinner types. Meanwhile I was still drinking in alleyways, park benches, having blackouts, risky behaviour, life altering bad decisions, you name it. This went on for 20 years. I'm now teetotal and see alcohol as an absolute toxin. I'll I'll educating my children about what acolohol does to the brain, the body, emotions, mental health and society and if they choose to drink, so be it. People forget that there is an option to actually abstain. It's not something that has to be inoculated against like an inevitable childhood illness.

Agree. As usual, the argument about what happens in other countries is overstated. My dp - Italian - looked shocked when I just asked him if he was given wine with his meals at 13! It’s also very, very normal to water wine down there.

There’s a huge difference between offering a few sips or even a glass of a low alcohol-content drink from time to time to take away the mystique of drinking and pouring out a glass of wine for a 13-year-oldwhen you have a glass yourself, which sounds like what’s happening here.

Also agree with a pp who said none of this has much to do with whether you’ll end up drinking in the park. My parents never made a big deal out of drinking - still did my fair share of loitering in the park with booze because that’s what (some) friends were doing. Teenagers are far more likely to be smoking weed now, mind.

I also grew up with parents who would occasionally let me have a cherry b/snowball/lambrini/shandy etc as a kid and it definitely didn't stop me drinking in the park either lol. Needless to say, at almost 30, I very rarely drink now.

The thing is it doesn't really matter if even the majority of children aren't affected by being given wine at such a young age if some of them are, and that's irrefutable, that could include your son. I wouldn't take that risk and I don't blame you for not wanting to.

I think this country is different because of the binge drinking culture, and many kids are influenced by their peers more than their parents and so family culture towards drinking is not necessarily a guide to how children will react.

The other thing is that children are under a lot of pressure here from social media etc and drink can be a bit of a crutch. It's a very unhealthy way of trying to solve/blot out your problems.