I’ve been asked for examples of hate.
“The fact that this fetish…”
Transwomen do not have “this fetish”. That is not the definition of a trans woman. Let’s make a distinction between people, usually men, behaving unacceptably and transwomen who have done nothing wrong.
We need to work together to find a way forwards with that.
“I get tired of the "just want to live their lives" cliche. That might apply to a few…”
There are a lot of transwomen who just want to live their lives. To call that a ‘cliche’ and to suggest it ‘might apply to a few’, is unnecessarily hateful. It hurts people who have done nothing wrong and does nothing constructive to address the genuine issues arising that are harming women and women’s rights.
“why is there little talk of female to male trans people? Is it because FtoM don’t appear to do things like want to teach with a large prosthetic cock poking out of their trousers? Are FtoM trying to erase gay men and make them have sex with them.”
This is in response to me highlighting the focus on transwomen and clearly suggests that transwomen are the kind of people that want to teach whilst wearing very sexually explicit and unacceptable outfits.
It also suggests that transwomen are trying to erase gay men and make them have sex with them. I’d like to understand more about this. I don’t understand it.
“Autogynaphelia is a thing. Look it up.”
That’s really offensive. Autogynaphelia is not the same as transgender.
As I scroll through I’m noticing some really intelligent posts that don’t contain hate and actually promote healthy and much needed debate. Just thought I’d mention. E.g. @FOJN
“If a female woman can't present themselves like this, why should a transwoman be able to? It makes no sense.“
Someone answers, “Because they are male.”
Not true. In reality, if someone argues they can dress that way because they are trans… that’s unacceptable. No matter who you are it’s unacceptable. And the school can simply say, “That’s irrelevant. You’re dressed in a sexually explicit way- that goes against our policy for teacher dress code, regardless of your gender identity.”
I’m not allowed to wear jeans or have my nails long whilst working for the NHS. Of course the school can manage this situation swiftly, if they wish to do so.
“Every mild criticism of awful behaviour by a transwoman is prefaced by a 2000-word essay of disclaimers: 'not all trans, trans is valid, trans are so discriminated against' and so on.”
Again this is describing ‘awful behaviour perpetrated by transwomen’. In reality, this behaviour is perpetrated by people, usually men, who are strategically and maliciously using a trans identity that isn’t genuine, in order to get away with awful behaviour. And that’s on them. It’s not the fault of transwomen.
As an aside, the criticism is (understandably) not in any way mild. It’s quite rightly very vocal and that’s fine. Let’s just direct it towards the actual issues arising, not people who have done nothing wrong.
In relation to mumsnet being known for its hate towards the trans community, “but nobody is apparently able to show this. Because MN doesn't allow it. This claim without proof is absolutely goady as much as it is batshit.”
You’re right, it’s difficult for me to list all the nasty comments because they are deleted. Not sure how that magically makes them not hateful?
To go off track a little…
“When I rule the world, there will be a tax on the word 'hate' when used to mean mild irritation or sarcasm; well-founded annoyance or disapproval with the actions of an individual or group; dislike of/disagreement with an ideology; etc etc. The revenues will be enormous, at first anyway, and will be used for assorted good causes. Getting children out into the fresh air and away from screens, for example.”
Let’s not mess things up further by compromising freedom of speech. But if you do become our dictator, please save a little of your revenue for the creation and maintenance of green spaces… the pollution where I am is horrendous and I’m completely stuck due to cladding. In another post you might quite like me, because despite me thinking human rights are for all humans… My son is 19 months and I like your views on fresh air, we do all we can to avoid screen time.
Back to the hate… another penny in the jar for @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g
“Could you explain why this teacher, who is being their authentic self, is ridiculing anyone? Are you implying they are not genuinely trans? How can you tell? You also seem to have misgendered them. Is that not very transphobic of you?”
What the teacher is doing is clearly offensive. If you don’t agree then your entire argument falls flat.
There are plenty of transwomen who would vehemently agree that it’s offensive. They would be horrified that you are making zero distinction between this offensive example versus transwomen who have done absolutely nothing wrong. Your post is just sarcasm and it’s not constructive. There are actual problems to deal with, this isn’t a game.
“Lesbians being told to accept penises in their dating pools”
Lesbians aren’t all the same. Some lesbians would be horrified, others may be entirely fine with that arrangement, others curious or indifferent… so the list goes on. The thing that matters is that the lesbian community are able to voice their collective views and that all sides, including trans, are heard. How else can a resolution be agreed upon that respects everyone’s rights?
Proper debates need to be had about women’s spaces, women’s sports et etc
How can that happen with all sides so full of assumptions, fear and sweeping generalisations?
“Also, I'm fed up of the conflation with gay rights - gay people were just asking for equal rights dignity and respect.”
The only trans people I know are just asking for equal rights, dignity and respect. And they aren’t asking to eradicate the rights of women and children. They would find your statements hateful. Talk about sexual predators, yes, but don’t deny the existence of transwomen who have done nothing wrong by never acknowledging them. It’s not reasonable and it doesn’t help protect the most vulnerable members of society, who need this whole mess sorted out by civilised and intelligent debate and resolution.
Also, I’m interested in your statement about transwomen being “a tiny minority who also happen to be over represented in the UK prison system for sexual offences” Please can you say more about this? Genuinely interested.
@vestofabsurtidy “How are you classing transwomen? Which spaces are you advocating they use?”
I’d suggest a space where they are safe. Just like I advocate for safe spaces for women. Mind blowing stuff right?
With regards to your comments about Autogynephilia. I need more time. In a nutshell they are separate things and implying they are the same is really offensive. It’s just using shock tactics to misguide others’ perception of transwomen. What I think about Autogynephilia is an entirely separate matter.
“how dare you misgender this stunning and brave woman. Transwomen are women you know, we must have total acceptance without exception and there can be no debate about it.”
There are transwomen who would be appalled that the arguments used to defend them are being used to defend this offensive behaviour.
Who exactly are you mocking and shaming? It needs to be clearer so there can be a meaningful debate. We should be trying to make things better not just ridiculing anyone who has something different to say.
Your comments are not welcoming a debate they are doing exactly what you accuse others of- you’re shutting down an opportunity to promote positive change.
@samyeagar I’m quoting you here, because I’m interested. I don’t think you’re being hateful…
“because nobody is advocating for the rights of dangerous perverts.
Yet that is an inevitable outcome and consequence of Self ID and Trans Women Are Women. Self ID and Trans Women Are Women covers the dangerous perverts too. No way around that.
So while it may feel distasteful to some who adhere to Self ID and Trans Women Are Women, that is exactly what they are advocating for.”
I’m interested because it’s similar to lots of institutional abuse. E.g. sexual predators becoming celebrities, teachers, religious leaders etc etc… strategically, in order to groom and sexually abuse children.
So we put safeguarding in place. We haven’t banned priests, teachers, celebrities etc.
Do I think the safeguarding is adequate? No. It definitely needs improving. We desperately need better safeguarding in so many areas of modern day life.
@brefugee “Try harder”? I dislike your tone.
But that doesn’t mean I can call you hateful. I just wouldn’t want you near my child with that dismissive and negative attitude, devoid of any constructive criticism. It’s not good for a persons self esteem.
Anyway, I’m doing as you’ve ordered.
“If Stonewall is basically, bottom line, saying that anyone who says they're a woman, is a woman, how is anyone supposed to know who the bullshitters are?
lso not afraid to speak up. But it is a "thing" that literally never crosses my path.”
Are you saying you’re not afraid to speak up? But that it is something you’ve never actually had to do?
Could that be because transwomen are not actually spending their time trying to sneak into your safe space to harm you?
You’re ready to stand up to them… but you’ve never had to? Is that what your saying?
I’m not saying sexual predators can’t impersonate transwomen. I’m simply saying transwomen are not the issue. Sexual predators are.
And the issue is finding a way to ensure everyone has their human rights upheld.
“And now there can never be a proper discussion and way forward. It must be either or. That's also on the TRAs.”
So you believe there can never be positive change and it’s all someone else’s fault.
“It must be either or”
Come on… Could I produce clearer evidence of the ‘black and white thinking’ I mentioned, which apparently doesn’t exist?
And I’m only on page 4…
“But you think WE have to come up with a. Solution that make trans women happy?”
Nobody is free until we are all free. You might only care about one group of people. But I care about the bigger picture.
I ask myself, what if I had been born into difference circumstances? What if I had identified as a transwomen? How would I want the world to treat me?
“She is so brave for standing up to this transphobic hate.”
Is this fun for you? shudder
“Being trans is the feeling in someone's head. It means absolutely nothing.”
We used to electrocute gay people because of the deviant feelings they had, that were all in their head.
And for those of you saying that gay rights are irrelevant because gay people didn’t encroach other other peoples right’s…
I distinctly remember the outrage when gay marriage was proposed. There were many angry people, convinced that ‘their marriage’ would be ‘ruined’ and become meaningless if gay people were allowed to have the same marriage as them. In fact, isn’t that exactly why gay people STILL can’t get married in the Church of England??
Anyway, I’ll be back if this isn’t deemed enough examples… but I’m only on page 4 and this is all so depressing.
Please, someone, come along and see the value of a proper debate. With out all the hate.
#DebateWithoutHate